- Quotes by James and Preston are in black bold.
- Quotes by ECFs are in italics and underlined.
It seems Don is
desperate these days to save his failing, falling, fantasy-world of full
preterism. He put this absurd guest article out by someone from 1991 named
Timothy James, who I assume is a full preterist like Preston. Preston endorses
it as he says that "James does a fine job of responding to a
common objection to true preterism. Give careful thought to this good
article".
The article in question is titled "Why No Record of Christ's Coming?"
It starts off with an absurd claim that "The belief in the failure of Christ’s prophecies stem from the attempts of a Gentile-dominated church after A.D. 70 trying to understand Jewish concepts. This lack of understanding should not amaze us, for most of the Jewish world misunderstood the prophecies of His first coming, so why should we expect any difference in recognition of His second coming by Gentile interpreters?"
The article in question is titled "Why No Record of Christ's Coming?"
It starts off with an absurd claim that "The belief in the failure of Christ’s prophecies stem from the attempts of a Gentile-dominated church after A.D. 70 trying to understand Jewish concepts. This lack of understanding should not amaze us, for most of the Jewish world misunderstood the prophecies of His first coming, so why should we expect any difference in recognition of His second coming by Gentile interpreters?"
Apparently, this James
fellow wants us to all accept that there was not a single soul capable of
understanding Christ came back and that the 2nd Coming and Resurrection of the
Dead occurred in 70AD because the Church was a "Gentile-dominated
church after AD 70 trying to understand Jewish concepts".
Does this claim really
stand up to scrutiny though? The answer is an absolute clear and resounding
"No".
First off, there is
resounding evidence that John, a Jew, who was definitively Hebrew-minded, lived
to the reign of Trajan and taught Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp (the other
apostles did too). We have their surviving writings which were written post 70 AD.
There is also the Didache which was written post 70 AD.
Irenaeus confirms this
fact in Against Heresies 3.3.4 and 5.30.3 since he was in Smyrna as a youth
where he heard the Revelation being preached. He was also under the
discipleship of Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna who was a direct disciple of Apostle
John.
Irenaeus on Revelation writes: "But if it had been necessary to announce his name plainly at the present time, it would have been spoken by him who saw the apocalypse. For it was not seen long ago, but almost in our own time, at the end of the reign of Domitian".[1]
Irenaeus on Revelation writes: "But if it had been necessary to announce his name plainly at the present time, it would have been spoken by him who saw the apocalypse. For it was not seen long ago, but almost in our own time, at the end of the reign of Domitian".[1]
Polycarp clearly in his
writings lays out that the 2nd Coming is future and the Resurrection
of the Dead is future when he writes in his letter to the Philippians: “If we please Him in this present world,
we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that
He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, we
shall also reign together with Him, 2 Timothy 2:12 provided only we believe. In
like manner, let the young men also be blameless in all things, being
especially careful to preserve purity, and keeping themselves in, as with a
bridle, from every kind of evil.”[2]
Polycarp clearly learned
this truth from John, a Hebraic-minded thinker. Let’s not finish there however.
Polycarp mentions Ignatius, his brother in Christ, and a bishop of Antioch. Eusebius
confirms that Ignatius was also of apostolic stock[3].
What does Ignatius say
on the 2nd Coming and resurrection of the dead? He also claims them
both as future events.
Chapter 11 of his
Epistle to Ephesians: “The last times
have come upon us. Let us therefore be of a reverent spirit, and fear the
long-suffering of God, that it tend not to our condemnation. For let us either
stand in awe of the wrath to come, or show regard for the grace which is at
present displayed — one of two things. Only [in one way or another] let us be
found in Christ Jesus unto the true life. Apart from Him, let nothing attract
you, for whom I bear about these bonds, these spiritual jewels, by which may I
arise through your prayers, of which I entreat I may always be a partaker, that
I may be found in the lot of the Christians of Ephesus, who have always been of
the same mind with the apostles through the power of Jesus Christ.”
Chapter 8 in his Epistle
to the Trallians: [quotes Isa 52:5] “Give
no occasion to the Gentiles, lest by means of a few foolish men the whole
multitude [of those that believe] in God be evil spoken of. For, Woe to him by
whose vanity my name is blasphemed among any. Isaiah 52:5”
One should question why
Ignatius would quote this to His Church if he and his bishopric he ruled over
were all post-70 Gentile-dominated controlled as James claims. Hilarious.
Then to make things
worse for James. In Chapter 9 of this same epistle Ignatius states quite
clearly: “Stop your ears, therefore, when
any one speaks to you at variance with Jesus Christ, who was descended from
David, and was also of Mary; who was truly born, and ate and drank. He was
truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate; He was truly crucified, and [truly]
died, in the sight of beings in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth. He
was also truly raised from the dead, His Father quickening Him, even as after
the same manner His Father will so raise up us who believe in Him by Christ
Jesus, apart from whom we do not possess the true life”.
He literally teaches a 2nd
Coming and resurrection of the dead as future here to the Trallians. One can
only laugh at the utter failure of full preterism trying to claim the absurd
things they do.
On the Resurrection of
the Dead in Chapter 2 of his Epistle to the Tarsians – “I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to
disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only ] in appearance,
was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance; others that He is not the
Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. Others, again,
hold that He is a mere man, and others that this flesh is not to rise again, so
that our proper course is to live and partake of a life of pleasure, for that
this is the chief good to beings who are in a little while to perish. A swarm
of such evils has burst in upon us. But you have not given place by subjection
to them, no, not for one hour. Galatians 2:5 For you are the fellow citizens as
well as the disciples of Paul, who fully preached the Gospel from Jerusalem,
and round about unto Illyricum, Romans 15:19 and bore about the marks of Christ
in his flesh. Galatians 6:17”.
Chapter 7: “And that our bodies are to rise again, He
shows when He says, Verily I say unto you, that the hour comes, in the which
all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they
that hear shall live. And [says] the apostle, For this corruptible must put on
incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:53 And
that we must live soberly and righteously, he [shows when he] says again, Be
not deceived: neither adulterers, nor effeminate persons, nor abusers of
themselves with mankind, nor fornicators, nor revilers, nor drunkards, nor
thieves, can inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 And again, If the
dead rise not, then is not Christ raised; our preaching therefore is vain, and
your faith is also vain: you are yet in your sins. Then they also that are
fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in
Christ, we are of all men most miserable. If the dead rise not, let us eat and
drink, for tomorrow we die. 1 Corinthians 15:13-32 But if such be our condition
and feelings, wherein shall we differ from asses and dogs, who have no care
about the future, but think only of eating, and of indulging such appetites as
follow after eating? For they are unacquainted with any intelligence moving
within them.”
Should we disregard the
fact that Ignatius sent letters to St. John and Mary, Mother of God? Hilarious!
The truth is right in full preterists’ faces!
In his letter to Mary of
Neapolis in Chapter 4 he speaks on Clement, Bishop of Rome: “Now it occurs to me to mention, that the
report is true which I heard of you while you were at Rome with the blessed
father Linus, whom the deservedly-blessed Clement, a hearer of Peter and Paul,
has now succeeded”.
What does Clement say
about the 2nd Coming and Resurrection of the Dead?
1 Clement Chapter 24: "Let us consider, beloved, how the Lord
continually proves to us that there shall be a future resurrection, of which He
has rendered the Lord Jesus Christ the first-fruits by raising Him from the
dead. Let us contemplate, beloved, the resurrection which is at all times
taking place. Day and night declare to us a resurrection. The night sinks to
sleep, and the day arises; the day [again] departs, and the night comes on. Let
us behold the fruits [of the earth], how the sowing of grain takes place. The
sower Luke 8:5 goes forth, and casts it into the ground, and the seed being
thus scattered, though dry and naked when it fell upon the earth, is gradually
dissolved. Then out of its dissolution the mighty power of the providence of
the Lord raises it up again, and from one seed many arise and bring forth fruit.”
Chapter 25-27 he
literally continues to explain why the resurrection and 2nd Coming
are to be future events. This is literally a hearer of Peter and Paul who says
this.
Didache Chapter 16: “Watch for your life's sake. Let not your
lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the
hour in which our Lord comes. Matthew 24:42 But often shall you come together,
seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of
your faith will not profit you, if you be not made perfect in the last time.
For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the
sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; Matthew
24:11-12 for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and
betray one another, Matthew 24:10 and then shall appear the world-deceiver as
the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be
delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never
yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into
the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but they
that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then
shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an outspreading in
heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the
resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall
come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon
the clouds of heaven”.
This makes this writer’s
words completely asinine and absurd when we see all this writing that was given
when James claims that there was some great “silence” going on. It’s absolutely
absurd and is just a complete dismissal of all that the ECF who were taught by
the apostles themselves give us for information.
“The silence of the period after the destruction was a direct result of the downfall and captivity of the Jewish Nation. Along with its end the Jewish Christians were scattered and became almost lost to history. If any literature was written by them after the fall of Jerusalem that taught the return of Christ in that event, there is good reason to believe that it was suppressed or beyond the understanding of the dominant Gentile church (see E. Hampden-Cook’s section in Appendix I).”
Don gives us no
citations from James’ guest article… James doesn’t either, and only some person
named E. Hampden-Cook’s Appendix I of some book is mentioned? I googled to see
who this E. Hampden-Cook is and found a 1905 book “The Christ Has Come: the Second Advent an Event of the Past: an Appeal
from Human Tradition to the Teaching of Jesus and His Apostles”. I would
wager a guess that this is a person who hates traditions and hates the Early
Church and discredits them just because they don’t agree with him historically
nor agree with whatever ridiculous preterist interpretation he likely comes up
with here in this book.
“Careful study of Rabbinic sources shows that the remnant of the Jewish nation actively destroyed all apocalyptic works speaking of an imminent end after A.D. 70 because of its embarrassment to them. Hence, suppression of Jewish/Christian material referring to fulfilled imminence was a most likely target of this group also.”
“Careful study of Rabbinic sources shows that the remnant of the Jewish nation actively destroyed all apocalyptic works speaking of an imminent end after A.D. 70 because of its embarrassment to them. Hence, suppression of Jewish/Christian material referring to fulfilled imminence was a most likely target of this group also.”
James makes no mention
of who these “Rabbinical sources” are who were supposedly actively destroying “all
apocalyptic works speaking of an imminent end after AD 70 because of its embarrassment
to them”. He surmises that these people were suppressing Jewish/Christian
material… I surmise that this has no actual sourcing so it is simply a
conspiracy theory concocted from a full preterist.
“Another factor related to this is N. B. Stonehouse’s mention of a definite division in the church after A.D. 70. (Apocalypse, p.139f). Syrian Christianity was isolated from the Greek world because of its Aramaic language. This barrier caused a more pure line of understanding and tradition. Therefore, the Greek church considered the Syrian church ‘heretical’ because they rejected the Greek’s sensual chiliasm and held to a spiritual/figurative understanding of Jewish/Christian apocalyptic. This distaste for sensual chiliasm was a major factor in their total rejection of the Apocalypse in the early Syrian texts and canon. It wasn’t till later that Revelation was added, and then with a heading that placed its date in reign of Nero, before the A.D. 70 event. (Note: chiliasm was a form of millennialism and was very common in the early church- DKP).”
“Another factor related to this is N. B. Stonehouse’s mention of a definite division in the church after A.D. 70. (Apocalypse, p.139f). Syrian Christianity was isolated from the Greek world because of its Aramaic language. This barrier caused a more pure line of understanding and tradition. Therefore, the Greek church considered the Syrian church ‘heretical’ because they rejected the Greek’s sensual chiliasm and held to a spiritual/figurative understanding of Jewish/Christian apocalyptic. This distaste for sensual chiliasm was a major factor in their total rejection of the Apocalypse in the early Syrian texts and canon. It wasn’t till later that Revelation was added, and then with a heading that placed its date in reign of Nero, before the A.D. 70 event. (Note: chiliasm was a form of millennialism and was very common in the early church- DKP).”
Again, no citation to back
this up. This one was even worse because when I went to google whoever N.B.
Stonehouse was, there was nothing to come up until I dug deeper into Google and
found a Ned Bernard Stonehouse who gave a dissertation called The Apocalypse in the Ancient Church: A
Study in the History of the New Testament Canon in 1929. This was not
quoted like it should be – as is usual for Preston (for a “scholar” [LOL] he
apparently doesn’t comprehend very well how to cite things).
James makes a claim that the “Interpretation of Scripture by the Gentile-dominated church was caught up in the idea of a physical return and a literal interpretation of the very figurative Jewish apocalyptic language found in the book of Revelation and other OT & NT prophecies. Yet, even in the early church, Christ’s return was seen by the Jewish Christians to be a spiritual change in the authority of the Kingdom.”
If one goes and studies
Hellenism at all though one will find that the idea of the heavens and earth
being changed and the foundations of cosmogony being changed and being movable
is not a Greek theosophical nor philosophical take, it is a Hebraic one. One
will also find that the Greeks did not accept the idea of the resurrection of
the dead, the idea that the self-same body one is born with and grows and dies
with will rise from the literal grave. We find however, the Pharisee camp did believe
this and we also find that the Christian Church accepted this based on 1
Corinthians 15 and 2 Peter and other various texts. And as we’ve shown,
Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp all three accept a real 2nd Coming
to take place and a real resurrection of the dead to take place in the future.
These men were ALL taught by the Apostles. There’s no conspiracy here. It’s
just a matter of fact that these full preterist are trying to push
pseudo-history and pseudo-philosophy on unsuspecting, ignorant people. In other
words, pseudo-scholarship. One can read Plato, Celsus, and other Greco-Roman
philosophers to see they found the Pharisee Jews and Early Christian’s
worldviews bizarre and laughable.
“Such can be seen in the ‘jumping the gun’ of the early church in
the teaching that the Lord had come before A.D. 70, (II Thess. 2:1-2). This
premature teaching was dangerous to the early church since it implied an
acceptance of the Temple cultus, thus putting Christianity in the category of
just a new sect of Judaism, rather than the fulfillment of the whole thing. The
fact that they believed the Lord had come before A.D. 70 shows that they
interpreted His return as a spiritual coming in the early church. Even though
they were premature, it only supports our early research that they expected His
return just as He said, in that generation.”
James gives us no
evidence that anyone believed that the 2nd Coming was going to be
entirely “spiritual”. He just puts some scripture verse and expects us to
accept what he says I suppose. This also is a crock of nonsense he is saying.
We have just shared what the Early Church believed post 70. John was still
clearly alive. He and the apostles clearly taught in some way, shape, or form,
Clement, Polycarp, and Ignatius. They all clearly taught the 2nd
Coming would be a real event and the resurrection of the dead would take place
and the bodies of the deceased would literally rise to eternal life one day.
I’m not sure what the
heck then happens with this article because suddenly what was supposed to be
Why No Record of Christ’s Coming becomes I suppose why Preston denies the
physical body of Christ and makes Jesus strip off his flesh suit in the
Ascension?
James claims “there are only two main verses that have loosely been used to assume a physical return of Christ by the Greek-dominated church. The first is Acts 1:9-11 (the Ascension), ‘he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight,’ after this the two angels reassured the disciples saying, ‘this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.’ (emphasis mine, tj.) The emphasis here is not on the transfigured form, but on the manner in which he ascended and would return, ‘in a cloud’. This event was a reaffirmation of Jesus’ being the apocalyptic ‘Son of Man’ spoken of in Daniel and the Gospels. That he, ‘the Son of Man,’ came with the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13), is later emphatically stated to be fulfilled in His return, in numerous places (Matt.16:27f; 24:30; Mark 13:26; and Luke 21:27)”.
What a bizarre
statement. First off, it’s not “assumed” that there is going to be a physical
return of Christ. It’s a fact that Jewish and Gentile Christians all taught
that Christ would physically return and that when he did the material creation
would be changed and the dead would really rise. Nothing in the Ascension
chapters of Acts proves this fool to be correct. As a matter of fact, the Koine
Greek does not allow one to “loosely” interpret it any other way than that
Christ left physically and did not strip himself of nor lose his physicality. I
cover this in my refutation of Alan Bondar and also refute Don K Preston’s many
books where he tries to con people into believing that Jesus became a stripper
and got rid of His humanity.
“The second verse under consideration is Revelation 1:7, ‘Behold, he cometh in the clouds and every eye shall see him, every one which pierced him: and all the kindred of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen’. Here one finds the same apocalyptic ‘Son of Man’ imagery regarding His ‘coming in the clouds.’ The language of the text shows that literally, those that would see him were even who had ‘pierced him’, namely the Jews (Acts 2:23,36; 5:30). In His parousia in judgment on the Jewish theocracy, those that had rejected Him would now ‘see’ the truth of Jesus’ claims and their error, i.e. a nationalistic expectation of the Kingdom (Matthew 26:64). Truly, upon a close investigation of the subject, there are not any verses in the New Testament that point to any other manner of coming other than a spiritual parousia of Christ in a judgment of God’s enemies at the redemptive-historical end-time of the Old Covenant system. In fulfilling this event, the bondage of the non-occurrence theory is vanquished.”
This is entirely what can only be called nonsense. Especially so if one has read even a small bit of information from Josephus. There are no records of any Jew, Josephus included, to piece this together that they were wrong and there are no records that they now “saw” the truth of Jesus’ claims and their errors. There’s no record from the Early Church claiming this. Matter of fact, what we find instead are the Apostles’ disciples claiming otherwise. History is not silent like this fool claims. The ECFs are loud and clear that James is making absurd claims and if I’m going to be frank, this is nothing more than a pathetic attempt at a conspiracy theory.
If this is what’s the
best proof for full preterism and what is in this book of Mr. James, I would
hate to see what other nonsense he has in it that this pseudo-scholar Preston
endorses.
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