tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-45357362948679918652024-02-19T04:29:53.378-08:00Hope Resurrected"MAKING HYPER PRETERISM A THING OF THE PAST"Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-49841364838151648092023-08-08T17:15:00.003-07:002023-08-08T17:15:57.558-07:00Gospel of Mark Notes - Inroduction - Chapters 1-4<p> Introduction -</p><p>The Gospel of Mark is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.</p><p>Who is Mark? He's not one of the 12 Apostles. He has a Latin name. John Mark is identified in the Acts of the Apostles. They did not have last names at this time but there were a lot of John's so this helped distinguish him from other John's. </p><p>Mark was not born in Judaea and to do any business dealings he'd have to have two names: One Jewish and one Roman, like an alias or a legal name, John/Mark. </p><p>Mark is from a Christian family, his cousin is St. Barnabas and he has several family connections. In the 40s AD, he accompanied Barnabas and then did so with St. Peter in Rome. He is originally from Cyrene, (modern-day - Libya) which is part of five cities and a port town. </p><p>How is St. Mark a witness? He records St. Peter's account and sermons and pieces them together. Mark is educated and of a merchant family and likely was the first apostle to produce a gospel (64-69AD). The final draft of what is now Mark's gospel was written and edited likely after St. Peter's death. This is just an educated guess at best however, it aligns with what we know of the creation of the gospel through historical texts and it seems pretty clear that St. Mark wrote this after St. Peter's death (64AD).</p><p>After St. Peter's death, Mark became the Bishop of Antioch and was martyred in 68 AD. His Gospel is written eyewitness testimony from St. Peter. </p><p>Fun fact: In the iconography of the Church, St. Mark is often portrayed as a Lion and is Italy's patron saint. </p><p>God has given four different gospel accounts. This is proof that the gospels are speaking the truth because it is all four different accounts with additional things and things they didn't say or omitted. Mark wrote this Gospel in Greek through human beings from their memories in the 1st CE and their language. He doesn't write it very well in Greek like St. Paul usually does.</p><p>St. Mark as one will see focuses largely on the nature of humanity in his Gospel. </p><p>[Chapter 1]</p><p>1:1-8 - "The gospel" victory of Jesus. Son of God. Messiah. Caesar is a son of a god in Rome so calling Jesus by this title is punishable by Roman law. It is a political and theological statement being made here that we in the modern day often overlook. </p><p>Here in vv.1-8 we see Mark use Malachi 3:1 and Isaiah 40:3 and smushes them together. </p><p>"The voice of one crying/calling out". </p><p>The Messiah is to bring the Israelites out of the Babylonian Exile. John the Forerunner (Baptist) calls them to come out of the city to the wild to pave the way for the Messiah. </p><p>They'd been in Jerusalem and rededicated it, etc. but they still did not see or experience or feel the presence of the Lord being inside the Temple like God had before, so the majority of Jews felt that the Exile was still taking place and that the End of Exile had not been fulfilled yet. They felt they were still enslaved and still being punished by God in Exile awaiting the promise of Restoration. </p><p>John shows there is a real end to the Exile coming and that it is happening now/about to with the Messiah to show up soon. </p><p>vv. 4-5 John the Forerunner begins the start of this New Way by baptizing and purifying these New People. This vv. 4-5 is hyperbole for it's not all people but it is a significantly large amount of people. </p><p>vv. 6-8 - John is clothed in camel hair he has crafted on his own. He lives off the land eating bugs and honey. Elijah dressed similarly in the OT. John the Forerunner is the New Elijah, one with the same Spirit of God as Elijah the Prophet. He has been tasked as the Forerunner to prepare the Way for the Messiah. </p><p>"I baptize you with water and He will baptize you with Holy Spirit". Almost says it cryptically. </p><p>1:9-13 - John baptized Jesus from Nazareth in the Jordan River. Jesus does not come for repentance for He has nothing to repent of, being without sin. Jesus sees the Spirit descend, like a dove/bird (not literally a dove). Everyone then hears a voice from heaven: "You are My Son, with Who I am well pleased". </p><p>The Messiah is anointed. His Coronation begins here. This is clear from the enthronement language being used here that this is the case. The beginning of the King. The Prophet John anoints the King Jesus like Prophet Samuel does King David. Like David, Jesus was already King but not sitting on the throne yet. David had to reign amidst his enemies before this. Jesus will do the same til the 2nd Coming. The rest of the Gospel is that story. </p><p>1:12-13 - Tempted by Satan like King David when he could have killed but instead fled King Saul. David had to deal with Saul, the enemy. Jesus like David is successful versus Satan in the desert. </p><p>1:14-15 - John is in prison and Jesus begins preaching against the world of Satan. Zeus/Jupiter is seen by the Jews as Satan and Ceasar is an agent of Satan. Jesus is already seen proclaiming that the Kingdom of God is already victorious and at hand, so repent and believe in this victory. </p><p>1:16-20 - The Apostles join Jesus (Simon/Peter, Andrew, James, and John of Zebedee) in Galilee. Fishermen on the seacoast in the Sea of Galilee/Tiberius, they join Him and walk away from their livelihood as peasants to follow Him. They actually own their own boat so this is a big deal to do this. </p><p>1:21-34 - They go to Capernaum. Nazareth has no significance whatsoever archaeological-wise. It was a super-poor area and Capernaum at this time barely had any buildings. Jesus goes to the Synagogue and teaches there. One man comes in with a demon - a lesser spirit that possesses him. People would get possessed and many actually tried intentionally to become possessed by demons all the time in the Greco-Roman world. They had a "genius". </p><p>We know these demons are the enemy. Culturally, this man in Galilee may have even been seen as great since Jews and Gentiles were forced to intermingle a lot, definitely would have been seen that way by a few Gentiles as being "touched by 'the gods'". </p><p>This demon recognizes the Messiah and so Jesus exorcised the man by command. These spirits are just a little less than a god to pagans so who commands them out but someone who may be God Incarnate? :) </p><p>Jesus heals Peter's mother-in-law who was sick and then she serves them. When the sun sets, Jesus heals many people ridding them of a lot of demons, and doesn't let the demons say who He is. </p><p>Note: The demons do not repent and remain hostile but the people repent and believe and see transformation. </p><p>1:35-39 - Galilee is a more Gentile part of the nation than Jew by far. Christ is here delivering people from demons and healing people there. </p><p>1:40-45 - This leper (no known cure at the time) tells Jesus He can heal him if He wills it. This speaks of who the leper thinks He is, the Messiah. Sent by God or God Himself. More powerful than all. Jesus does heal the unclean man and touches him.</p><p>When Jesus cleanses the leper, the leper now has to go to the priesthood to be let back into society. However, instead of doing that, the guy tells everyone, enough so that He can't go to the cities or else He will face resistance, which it isn't yet time for Jesus to face. Jesus is growing popular and massive groups now are coming to see Christ. </p><p>[Chapter 2] </p><p>2:1-12 - Jesus enters Capernaum and is in St. Peter's mother-in-law's house and has large crowds. A group of men bring a paralytic to Jesus and take part of the roof off just to get their friend to Jesus to be healed. They care for this paralytic friend and are confident of who Jesus was/is and that He can do this. </p><p>Some scribes see this and see Jesus tell the man he is healed. They ask how He can forgive sins when only God alone can do so.</p><p>These motives of the scribes aren't innocent/pure or just a theological issue being raised. Jesus knew what they were thinking and what was in their hearts and responded to them declaring He was the Son of Man and telling the paralytic to get up and walk and he does. </p><p>2:13-17 - Jesus leaves the city, they follow, and He teaches them. As He passes, He meets Levi/St. Matthew, the tax collector tells him to follow Him. This would be seen as an unclean man following Jesus here. The Pharisees and scribes freak out and Jesus responds that "the healthy don't need doctors" and that He is calling sinners to repentance to be made righteous. </p><p>Levi leaves his former life to join Jesus. Jesus is willing to talk to all the tax collectors and sinners to bring them to righteousness and repentance when the Pharisees aren't. </p><p>Jesus is arguing for a whole interpretation of the Torah that is different from the Pharisees. The purpose of the Torah is to identify the disease of sin so that they can be cured while the Pharisees' purpose and interpretation of it is to identify and throw away or purge Judaea of the wicked. </p><p>2:18-22 - The Pharisees, Jesus shows, would have to accept these people and that they can't do so because of their pride and arrogance. </p><p>John the Forerunner's disciples and the Pharisees are fasting and see Jesus' disciples not fasting so they challenge Jesus on this matter. </p><p>Jesus responds with metaphors about a Bridegroom and wineskins saying you don't fast before the wedding. You celebrate. A time shall come when they will not them and will fast. </p><p>Next, is a metaphor of a garment and sewing. Then is one of the old and new wineskins. Christ is doing new things and they want it to be the old way and more importantly THEIR WAY, with THEIR structures they've built up. Christ is calling them to change their mindset and as they are, currently, they don't get it and He won't play by their rules. He is the New. They are the Old. Just like the sinners need to be made new, so do the Pharisees. </p><p>2:23-27 - The Pharisees are watching Jesus now. On the Sabbath, the disciples take some grain. They appeal to the crowd so Jesus responds and uses King David's run from Saul as an example, when he and them ate the priest's food. He is, by analogy, the King, and the disciples, His men, and the Pharisees are the persecutors sent by Saul/Satanic influences. </p><p>The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. God made a day of rest for mankind out of love, not as a rule to legally enforce like a lawyer. The commands of God (Law/Torah) are for the good of humanity to help them and better them, out of love. </p><p>A Sabbath-breaker is sick and unhealthy to Christ because they don't get rest. </p><p>[Chapter 3]</p><p>3:1-6 - Synagogue on Sabbath, there's a man there with a withered hand. Before Jesus heals him, He asks if He is to do good or evil on Sabbath. Is it lawful? If I ignore him is it not evil? Is it bad to do good? None can answer and Jesus gets angry at the Pharisees here because they are hypocrites. The Pharisees are also mad that they can't answer Him. They should not be mad that Jesus is doing these good things. They are because they have hard hearts and they don't care about these people at all. They suck and have no love and only care about their positions of power. We should strive ourselves to not be like these unfortunate men. If we are given positions of power we must use it for good and to help others. </p><p>Jesus heals the man and then the Pharisees go to the Herodians and plot to destroy Jesus. </p><p>3:7-12 - Many people come to see Jesus, some 600+ miles by foot's worth. From Tyre and Sidon to Galilee. Jesus even now has a boat ready to flee from this mob of people. He has cleansed many of demons. The demons merely see Him and flee yelling that He is "the Son of God". </p><p>3:13-19 - The 12 are mentioned. Judas the Betrayer is mentioned. They are all appointed and participate in what Jesus has been doing. Preach, heal, and cast out demons. Judas did all this too with them. At this time, Judas may not have wanted to betray Him. Just because we claim we follow Christ does not mean we do all the time. </p><p>3:20-30 - So many people are coming to them all that they can't catch a break. Jesus' own people/family end up coming to see Him for an intervention of sorts. The Pharisees have begun claiming that Jesus is possessed by a demon Beelzebub, who is casting out smaller demons. </p><p>Beelzebub means "High Lord of Flies/Dung". They're calling him literally Lord of Shit.</p><p>Jesus calls them out for this and asks: How can and why would Satan cast out Satan? If Satan did that, Satan would be screwing himself over and messing up his plans for humanity. </p><p>Jesus then calls the Pharisees to him and points out that they have come thanks to Satan and that Jesus is battling Satan and they are on Satan's side. </p><p>Jesus tells them they can be forgiven but they will not because they are calling the Holy Spirit's work, Satan. Calling God your adversary; enemy. If you continue on this path, God will condemn you for this and He tells them this so they might repent, out of love. </p><p>3:31-35 - His brothers and Mary, his mother come to talk to Him. His step-brothers. His point here he makes is the disciples are His family and those who follow God, including His step-brothers and mother, are family. Genealogy doesn't make one family. All who follow God are family.</p><p>[Chapter 4] </p><p>4:1-9 - Jesus again teaches the people. This time He is on a boat preaching so that He can make a getaway from the mob of followers if need be. St. Mark is more into showing that Jesus is the New King David. Jesus tells them lessons through parables and this one in particular is the Parable of the Sower. </p><p>4:10-12 - The Disciples ask what it means and why He is doing these parables so he cryptically quotes Isaiah 6:9-10 here. Isaiah 55 is also referenced here where Jesus' quote is from part of the Servant Songs. </p><p>The Servant will suffer so He can bear their sins. The prophecy says people will have their hearts darkened so they'll kill the Suffering Servant and He can bear their sins as He planned to do so through the Cross death, and Resurrection. </p><p>4:13-20 - If you understand this parable it will help you understand all others (Isaiah 55.10-13). Paraphrased: 75% of people who hear what I say won't get it. The people will reject the Word of God that Jesus preaches and it won't take root in them because Satan has already spread his roots into them and ruined the message. God is already the Pharisees' enemy.</p><p>Then some people find hardship and persecution come to them and they run. </p><p>Then some hear but then get concerned with the world and lose their focus (v. 20 Good soil produces good results). </p><p>Lastly, v. 20, the good soil produces good fruit and those who hear and do are these. </p><p>4:21-25 - After the Resurrection, the Apostles will get the parables (due to the Holy Spirit). Devout people recognize Jesus and are spiritually in tune. </p><p>A parable of a lamp under a basket is used. You don't waste your lamp. You use it to light the room. Jesus is talking about our faith and the gospel. He says to pay attention and keep measuring correctly. Don't be a dishonest merchant in other words. Be fair. Give generously and God will be to you. He is telling the disciples that they will get more understanding if they will do what they do already understand. </p><p>Jesus also takes a shot at the scribes here some because they memorize the Scriptures and know them but don't know them actually because they don't live them out and they KNOW they do not do so. </p><p>4:26-29 - He continues the parables with scattered seeds, which illustrates the point that He just made earlier. Scatter seed, tend it, see when it is ripe and harvest it. Doesn't have or know it all but does what he does have and knows in practice. Go and do likewise. </p><p>4:30-32 - Mustard seed becomes a big tree. Small bits of good and God can make big things. </p><p>4:33-34 - When alone, Jesus explained the parables He spoke to them and made more points with these people. </p><p>4:35-41 - Jesus and they go on a boat across the other side of the Sea of Galilee. Others are following them. As this takes place, a storm begins and Jesus is fast asleep. It gets bad so the disciples wake Jesus and He calms the storm. He is calm while they are freaking out. He tells the storm to cease. The disciples mutter to themselves asking "Who is this guy"? </p><p>The disciples at that moment, did not believe or trust Him. They think they are all going to die here. Earlier Jesus had been called Beelzebub. Baal is a storm god. Here Jesus shows He is Lord of Lords, not Baal. Not Asherah. Not Zeus. Yahweh Incarnate, Jesus. Yahweh is in control. He is Jesus. </p>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-2902827332042047132023-04-04T19:09:00.007-07:002023-04-04T19:38:36.134-07:00Does It Matter What Christians Believe? A Response to Joel McDurmon<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">By: William Vincent</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Joel McDurmon's article for reference:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;"><a href="https://www.lambsreign.com/blog/Full_Preterism_and_salvation_by_creeds?fbclid=IwAR39ZvwfBgIM4Caj2oZKhqC51_zcDgh_giblnp6KogmsDAgAySfC1ztn-D4" target="_blank">https://www.lambsreign.com/blog/Full_Preterism_and_salvation_by_creeds?fbclid=IwAR39ZvwfBgIM4Caj2oZKhqC51_zcDgh_giblnp6KogmsDAgAySfC1ztn-D4 </a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">Does it matter what we believe? Can I, for instance,
believe that Jesus is the brother of Satan? Can I believe that Jesus was the
first creation of Jehovah? Can I believe Jesus was a great prophet, second only
to Mohammed? Can I believe that Jesus was the greatest avatar of Krishna? These
are, after all, variations of faith in Jesus. Is there a point at which what a
person believes about Jesus matters to whether or not they can claim to be
saved in the Christian sense? In a recent article entitled <i>Full Preterism
And Salvation By Creeds: A Brief Note, </i>Joel McDurmon suggests that having
some actual boundaries to Christian faith is uncalled for. That if we take such
a notion seriously, doing as St. Paul suggests and call such teachings anathema,
then we have gone too far. Joel writes “I am not the judge of people’s hearts,
certainly not of people who in good faith are making and[sp] effort to
understand the scriptures, yet profess faith in Christ and show fruit
consistent with that profession.” Is he willing then to make room for the
various views I listed above? Joel suggests that if we are to be consistent
with our “creedalism” then we should pronounce anathema on those who vary from
the statements of the Athanasian Creed. I would counter Joel and say that if he
is going to be consistent with his lack of creedalism, that he should make room
for ALL Christian heresies. If he is to be consistent, anyone who claims to
believe anything about Jesus sincerely should be assured salvation and called a
Christian without hesitation; unless their group rejects being called
Christians I suppose.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">I think, however, it is important to address the
strawman that Joel has set up here. It is important because is seems to be the
consistent strawman that all Full Preterist and Full Preterist sympathizers want
to set up. This being some variation of the <i>creeds vs scripture</i>
argument. Joel’s article (in part) is entitled <i>salvation by creeds.</i> This
is clearly a strawman. The importance of the creeds, particularly those like
the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed and Athanasian Creed is that they bear witness
to what was believed historically by Christians; to the point of death. These
creeds are considered ecumenical <i>because </i>Christians of ALL times and
places have wholeheartedly confessed them. Let’s really take time to consider
this: is Joel ready to reconsider the teachings of Aruis? This, after all, was
the point of both counsels of Nicea and the formation of the Athanasian Creed. If
Joel is willing to allow FP a place, why not Aruis? If, however, it is too much
to question the common affirmation of Christianity that Jesus Christ is “true
God of true God”, then how can we go forward and deny that “he shall return in
glory and judge the living and the dead”? How can we deny the “resurrection of
the body” and still call what we believe the Christian faith? The ancient
gnostic sects would certainly love to hear of this inclusion. Joel asked if
anyone was brave enough to cry anathema, to that I respond not only those who
teach these perversions but also to those who bid them “god’s speed”.<br />
<br />
Joel says that these creeds do not offer exegetical support. This seems to show
gross ignorance of the historical Christian faith and it’s defense against
heresies. The Church Father’s wrote extensively in defense of the common faith,
and did so with extensive appeal to scripture. With this said, it should also
be noted that the defense of the Christian faith was with scripture and it’s
common understanding among the faithful. These are NOT mutually exclusive. In
fact, as St. Vincent of Lerins argues effectively in his renown canon, it is in
this context that the faith of scripture is faithfully transmitted from one
generation to the next. Vincent writes “But here someone perhaps will ask, since
the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything,
and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of
the [historical] Church's interpretation? For this reason — because, owing to
the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense,
but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems
to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For
Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius,
Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another,
Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore,
it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error,
that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should
be framed in accordance with the standard of ecclesiastical and ecumenical
interpretation.” [1] The appeal is not to creeds against scripture, but rather
appealing to the proper understanding of scripture by the common witness of
Christians in all times and all places. In other words, the Full Preterist,
Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon and all other heretical views do not stand against
simply the words of a creed, but against the common testimony and witness of
all Christians, in all times and in all places. One might argue against the interpretation
of some present-day exegete, but should one truly be in opposition to a faith
held for two millennium by all those who we can call Christian?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">Joel seems shocked that the Athanasian Creed says that
one cannot be saved without confessing the faith outlined in it’s statements.
That is a strong statement for sure. But I would like to know what particular confession
of that creed that Joel thinks is negotiable. Can a person deny the Trinity and
be saved? Can a person deny the Deity of Christ and be saved? Can a person
embrace Tritheism and still be saved? Can a person deny the true incarnation of
Christ? Can they deny the hypostatic union – that Christ was fully God and
fully man? Are these points negotiable, or is it just the “eschatological” statements
that Joel finds offensive? Would Joel affirm the salvation of the Jehovah’s
Witness or Mormon? If not, why not? Should he not be consistent? Why should we
even stop at confessing the above? Why not question whether or not a person
needs to believe in Christ at all? Many Full Preterists have embraced just that.
Just how much can a person deny about the Christian faith and still be assured
salvation through Christ? I would like to hear Joel answer this question. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">The creeds are NOT
the source of Christian faith. Rather the common historical faith is the source
of the creed. They are the summation and universally accepted witness to it. This
point must be fully grasped. The creeds COULD NOT exist if the faith they
outline was not universally accepted by the Church. In fact, I must press the
point that St. Paul says “there is one Lord, one faith and one baptism.” But of
course he is also the Apostle who writes of the resurrection and the Apostle
who admonishes us to cry anathema to those who preach in contradiction to this
very faith. In the end the heretics and their sympathizers are in opposition to
the very Apostolic foundation that they want to twist. Anathema!</span> <br /><br />1. Retrieved from https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm</p>William L. Vincenthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17550430571165985915noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-38886211211360326732023-02-25T15:03:00.004-08:002023-02-25T16:15:28.904-08:00The Death of Max KingThis blog post will be short. Today I was given the news that Max R King, who is basically the modern founder of Full Preterism, died today. I don’t have a lot to say. He seemed to be a nice guy but taught blatant heresies that harm people and bastardize Christianity. I don’t say that to be rude or disrespectful. I genuinely hope God is a universalist in the way St Gregory of Nyssa believes because I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes when he’s judged by Christ for directly and indirectly leading people down the road he went down over his 90+ years of life. There are so many people, over the course of his life, that King led astray with his heretical unitarian and full preterist teachings, whether from him directly teaching them, or indirectly from people he mentored like Don K Preston or William Bell, who I shall continue to fight against for their attempts to bastardize Christianity and the Christian faith. May God have mercy on King's soul. I hope you, the readers, will all join me in praying for his soul and for the Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son, God-Incarnate, the 2nd Power of Heaven, to have mercy on King for on the Final Day we shall all be judged one way or another. Amen. Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-66614604230324188682023-01-09T23:33:00.007-08:002023-01-10T00:20:12.496-08:00Response to Gary DeMar On His Hypocrisy/Let's Discuss The Sergius-Preston Debate<p> </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhdcVMVZJXK3SNObbIxQhUTF_1S86XBfOpZ1JUDwy_rPi2h2PdEPxENsp70GInT4CGl7cX0pbHDdRA-SEwFdfUM468j3MocSgMyNO4HopNBTVYPB2ZPgJnJjuoSfCnnvDNlwS5y8SquDPI7p7jDCIeutZPdZPhmWNwWxUEXf--rsrzXIQkDMTr88j3Q/s1082/324418940_740962557458660_4009308183652274644_n.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1082" data-original-width="828" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhdcVMVZJXK3SNObbIxQhUTF_1S86XBfOpZ1JUDwy_rPi2h2PdEPxENsp70GInT4CGl7cX0pbHDdRA-SEwFdfUM468j3MocSgMyNO4HopNBTVYPB2ZPgJnJjuoSfCnnvDNlwS5y8SquDPI7p7jDCIeutZPdZPhmWNwWxUEXf--rsrzXIQkDMTr88j3Q/w256-h320/324418940_740962557458660_4009308183652274644_n.jpg" width="256" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">It looks like we have gotten a Part 3 to Gary DeMar's hit pieces on me after all in the form of cheap shots aimed at me via a Facebook post. Gary has clearly not accepted my apology for calling him a moron after he viciously attacked Sam Frost. After blocking Frost, I was blocked when he proceeded to continue to talk disgustingly with Don Preston about him which led to the reason I posted what I did in anger but what else can be said? </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">I apologized publicly to Gary. He doesn't have to accept apologies, clearly has no plans to, and clearly plans to continue to try and demonize, villify, and discredit me. If Gary wishes to continue in this petty behavior, so be it. I pray Gary can get over someone calling him a moron.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">In this Facebook post Gary declares I have no credibility because I debated Don K Preston. This seems extremely hypocritical considering there is nothing wrong with debating someone under a pseudonym. It is also very weird that Gary DeMar makes a fuss about someone's credibility when he is sharing posts about Don Preston who is not only a heretic being he is a full preterist, but also a proven grifter that fakes his credentials. Don Preston after all is the grifter who claims he has an honorary doctorate but when investigated over this claim it all turned out to be a fake "honorary doctorate" from an unaccredited and fake seminary in California called Vision International University that he and William Bell both got it from.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">With all the money Don Preston has from his book sales he could have put some actual work in and earned a real and respectable degree from an accredited university or seminary. Yet, he chose not to and this is because he would be eaten alive by academia or a seminary for his outlandish and clownish beliefs about eschatology were he to try and defend his beliefs. This is evident with each and every book he puts out which amounts to nothing more than pseudoscholarship. </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">No, instead of putting in the work and earning a respectable degree, Don Preston went to a degree mill that gave him a free degree that ANYONE can get. An unearned and unaccredited fake degree from a diploma mill that Don parades around and puts on every book he sells, as if this was some amazing feat and accomplishment. </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">Couple this with the FACT that Don claims to be the president of a "Preterist Research Institute" when the reality is it isn't an institute for researching preterism at all. It has contributed zero research to preterism, zero research to and for academia, and not a single contribution to or for any seminaries are available. Nothing. </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">What we do have however, is some information available to us about what Don does with all the book sale cash he gets. It's fine to have a business but Don claims this is a "Preterist Research Institute" which is extremely misleading. (Can find information here at: <a href="https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/preterist-research-institute,205884258/">https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/preterist-research-institute,<chrome_find class="find_in_page">2</chrome_find>05884<chrome_find class="find_in_page">2</chrome_find>58/</a> ) </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">It's hypocritical of Gary to talk about someone's credentials and then give a grifter like Don K Preston a platform as if he is someone who is credible. Let's get real here.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">What this amounts to are cheap shots, projections, and ad hominems from DeMar. It's all a fallacious argument strategy to attempt to take the debate away from the actual topic (the OP/original point) and attempt to redirect the attention to some contrived issue with their opponent(s).</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br />Gary appears to be very insecure with regards to the arguments and discourse that's gone on. It is an unfortunate fact that he REFUSES to write so much as a single sentence that condemns Full Preterism as a dangerous heresy. Instead, when pointed out how he has made some rather faulty assumptions that he holds in common with full preterists and how that leads to dangerous error, instead of giving any answer substantially, he blocks everyone who asks questions and calls him out on this ridiculous and bizarre behavior.<br /><br />This has all been a distraction from DeMar. Instead of listening to some of the challenges and requests from many people to denounce full preterism and uphold the resurrection of the dead, etc. he has instead picked me out for calling him a "moron" over something that happened between him and my friend Frost. He's not answered any of the challenges given to him by multiple people. Nope. Instead he focuses on me calling him a "moron". Not whether or not Full Preterism is a dangerous heresy but "Lance was mean to me and called me a moron". </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">Which by the way, I should be thanking Gary DeMar for these articles! He's put me on many people's email lists. I've quite literally tripled in readership and viewers to this blog and received more praise than hate mail with many people hoping Gary will come to his senses and condemn full preterism while upholding the resurrection of the dead. </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjws-qPUzx3I0KgNLOOnshTxegzSXpgRuEltuNNORdYHZ-CM4h_ZJ06QHjh8lHgsiDvGRhq-Tkg6JV-1FgirVp9mmKRM4aopE88jPxn0UGwphpL28L1HuK6niVMFMhx81X6_Nk3d2D_QNRBEKELjBJm2lr1vrnJJE5EqYsjIR9beuRpenw6z2WH53Es/s812/323533331_894702581718526_7036673461264206147_n.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="515" data-original-width="812" height="203" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjws-qPUzx3I0KgNLOOnshTxegzSXpgRuEltuNNORdYHZ-CM4h_ZJ06QHjh8lHgsiDvGRhq-Tkg6JV-1FgirVp9mmKRM4aopE88jPxn0UGwphpL28L1HuK6niVMFMhx81X6_Nk3d2D_QNRBEKELjBJm2lr1vrnJJE5EqYsjIR9beuRpenw6z2WH53Es/w245-h203/323533331_894702581718526_7036673461264206147_n.jpg" width="245" /></a><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhY9gFZsbzsM-meAc1OqxYbOla7Snn2mL4NUo3iZy9fG-9hOnvJU8OuaqOn6PI8OrFV3VEPkyScHdVlBsFLBiH17iNAYL4WcLCznCaey2deYR-psZDE4AMR20gx67JWqcaKtKrkdTAqwjxyPJI5FllTe8Wni4O8OjPWRHkIS0a7ZRXeg2QYnoOj6Fj0/s3024/323996113_1220947065168609_5528773787631877365_n.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="904" data-original-width="3024" height="96" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhY9gFZsbzsM-meAc1OqxYbOla7Snn2mL4NUo3iZy9fG-9hOnvJU8OuaqOn6PI8OrFV3VEPkyScHdVlBsFLBiH17iNAYL4WcLCznCaey2deYR-psZDE4AMR20gx67JWqcaKtKrkdTAqwjxyPJI5FllTe8Wni4O8OjPWRHkIS0a7ZRXeg2QYnoOj6Fj0/w270-h96/323996113_1220947065168609_5528773787631877365_n.jpg" width="270" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"> </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">Now for my last part I wish to cover the Sergius Bale/Don Preston debate because I wish to share what my intentions were in making that fake account to debate Preston in the first place. </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">I ask Gary and the reader: If I constantly talked about Gary, blocked Gary from responding, and then simultaneously demanded Gary, the blocked person, to respond to all the challenges I give, how is Gary supposed to respond to this and how is Gary supposed to engage with this? One simply cannot do so. It is unreasonable. This is what Don Preston did to me. The only way for me to do any discourse or any exchange was to make a new account. However, Don also immediately would block when he saw "Lance Conley" so I did something simple. I took on a pseudonym and named myself "Sergius Bale". Is that seriously the work of someone evil? There's always more to the story than what Gary or Don have shared. It is super easy it seems for Gary to justify any behavior Don pulls since full preterists are clearly part of his tribe and he doesn't see them as being in danger of heresy since he refuses to condemn it. </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><b>Ask yourself why Gary thinks it is wrong for Lance Conley to fake his credentials as Sergius Bale, knowing he was intent on revealing the truth after the debate finished, but Gary finds it absolutely fine that Don Preston proudly and unrepentantly fakes his credentials to the public with his fake honorary degree from a fake university he got from a degree mill? This is hypocrisy, plain and simple. </b><br /><br /><b>I absolutely did fake Sergius Bale's credentials saying he was a Greek Orthodox man who lived in Austrailia teaching history as a professor at a university. I fail to see how this is any different than Don Preston faking all of his credentials to the public. I also had EVERY intention of exposing who I was AFTER the debate ended because I wanted to expose Don Preston for the charlatan he is. </b></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><b><br /></b></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">You see, before I had even bothered to set this account up, Preston had blocked me on Facebook and Youtube and his blog posts and then publicly kept demanding I answer him. He also simultaneously would claim that he refused to do any debate or discourse with me because I "lacked credentials". So it is quite simple: <b>Since Don has fake credentials from a fake degree mill from a fake university, I made Sergius Bale a fake professor from a fake university with fake credentials. </b></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">The saddest part though is, this fake account "Sergius Bale" was extremely easy to tell that it was not a real person. All one had to do was google the pictures to find out that this was not a real person. As a matter of fact, it only took a few weeks for a bunch of the more intelligent people in the Full Preterism - A Thing Of The Past group to fact check the sources, think critically, and figure out that it was me behind the account. The fact that I was able to fake being someone proficient in Koine Greek to Don Preston should speak volumes about his lack of scholarship or intelligence.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">I kid you not that when I engaged with Don on several points on that group that he DEMANDED and BEGGED for a debate with Sergius Bale. The only reason Sergius Bale's credentials even came into question was because when I engaged in this written debate with Preston he became completely infuriated because, fact is, "Sergius" beat Don in the debate he begged and pleaded Admin: William Vincent of the group and I for. <b>Don could have googled and fact checked who Sergius was and my credentials like others had done and easily figured out that this was a fake account. What really threw me for a loop was seeing that most of the people who believe the <chrome_find class="find_in_page">2</chrome_find>nd Coming is future did question the Sergius Bale account while I can't think of a single full preterist that did so because 1) they all believed Sergius was real as they don't fact-check sources, <chrome_find class="find_in_page">2</chrome_find>) they don't investigate, 3) they don't critically think about anything and just take everyone and anyone's word for things, 4) are unfortunately people who fall prey to grifters like Preston in full preterism. This is just a few of a myriad of reasons that full preterists fell for a fake account. Couple that with the fact that most of the full preterists have multiple fake accounts themselves and it becomes obvious that no one was really angry at Sergius being a fake account and were just trying to cover for Don losing badly at a written debate. </b></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">Here are just a few messages that went back and forth between Preston and Sergius. William Vincent and I can both provide more if necessary that vindicate that Don really wanted to debate Sergius. I even kept mentioning Lance Conley just because at this point it was comical that Don was so adamant to debate me. It should disturb people (which was one of my points in doing this fake account) that <b>Preston claims to be the president of a "research institute" and yet could not do some BASIC research, enough to know who he was debating. I have also never claimed to be some prestigious Bible scholar. Don has and does. I also always fully intended to reveal it was Lance Conley who was really Sergius Bale after the debate ended. It just ended before the debate could finish because once Don was losing, THEN to save face, he began trying to dig dirt on his opponent and FINALLY got some intelligence to ask questions and look for a Greek professor in Austrailia named Sergius Bale. </b></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjxI2YJbNstrQg27wKffGdk9p7uwDLt5-1clx2ktT1bqRO7-tnc11E-P0cH78PVgHL8aoDGMjcS9ma_sF2XkiUDj5aYkilOf7yggqZH_ATGL9EiC1lZjQYkKeX_cUEKXlB6lww5wsgF-diZ_eaG0lE2ofU8tYrZZTOj17zDnRJUmdr-YIMIt-O2W4An/s960/264593215_10220309351791563_1715994366056936635_n.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="960" data-original-width="540" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjxI2YJbNstrQg27wKffGdk9p7uwDLt5-1clx2ktT1bqRO7-tnc11E-P0cH78PVgHL8aoDGMjcS9ma_sF2XkiUDj5aYkilOf7yggqZH_ATGL9EiC1lZjQYkKeX_cUEKXlB6lww5wsgF-diZ_eaG0lE2ofU8tYrZZTOj17zDnRJUmdr-YIMIt-O2W4An/s320/264593215_10220309351791563_1715994366056936635_n.jpg" width="180" /></a><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjvGg8j-Ky6Mp53tHxgb9vHXHb8dFabO6Gy9oyQEMgVrFRGKI1nqvEeAh6fP4uot6LhVyxhARH5p0zI5sCG9lAp-WFUJ1O1NjpcmzCNMJxR0Gq_fWGKWY55rqBeoSopkwUTaJT-wi3SH-hVryDiWpUh0ER52kZsN_zY1ZLPOxO-EooIAQu1FpqhCTW9/s828/265552697_237143315171241_4827658684307890574_n.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="696" data-original-width="828" height="213" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjvGg8j-Ky6Mp53tHxgb9vHXHb8dFabO6Gy9oyQEMgVrFRGKI1nqvEeAh6fP4uot6LhVyxhARH5p0zI5sCG9lAp-WFUJ1O1NjpcmzCNMJxR0Gq_fWGKWY55rqBeoSopkwUTaJT-wi3SH-hVryDiWpUh0ER52kZsN_zY1ZLPOxO-EooIAQu1FpqhCTW9/w253-h213/265552697_237143315171241_4827658684307890574_n.jpg" width="253" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">I think I've dealt with this enough. The truth is all this stuff from Gary and the full preterists, with the overacting and melodramatic reactions of their followers are all being done to help cover now for not just Don but also Gary's backsides. </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">All Gary has done here is attempt a diversion and an ad hominem piece on Facebook and now exposed to his readers through that article of Don's to what a dimwitted moronic grifter Preston really is (I will not apologize for that ad hominem). He's exposed his grifter friend can't refute me in debate which should not be any real shocker since Don has no real credentials and is a pseudoscholar posing as a prostegious Bible scholar.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">It has also exposed that Gary DeMar is using the Sergius-Preston debate from over a year ago now (1<chrome_find class="find_in_page">2</chrome_find>-7-<chrome_find class="find_in_page">2</chrome_find>0<chrome_find class="find_in_page">2</chrome_find>1) so he can try to blow smoke and cover for his inability to answer questions that have been on many readers of his recent Facebook posts minds. The fact he has to block Sam Frost, William Vincent, and I for asking him simple questions shows insecurity on his part. What is he so scared of? That he may have to admit Frost has a point? That he might have to engage in actual discourse? That he might have to publicly tell people that full preterism is a heresy? That he might have to actually continue to uphold the resurrection of the dead? That he may have to rethink some of his preterist ideals and presuppositions? That <i>oikoumene </i>might not be solely about Rome? What a scary proposition that must be for Gary. I end this post with a blog post from Sam Frost about the word <i>oikoumene.</i></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><i><br /></i></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">And Gary, if you're reading this, I am sorry for calling you a moron still. Even if you don't accept my apology, you are still a Bible teacher, so you really should publicly renounce full preterism as a heresy publicly, uphold the resurrection of the dead, and quit blocking and running away from people who ask you questions about it. If you are secretly a full preterist in cohoots with Don Preston like many are beginning to believe, the only thing I can say is you need to find better friends and repent of the heresy. Peace.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><a href="https://vigil.blog/2023/01/06/hes-got-the-whole-world-in-his-hands/?fbclid=IwAR3CiGUp_TPCVRCAUISNrGPnV4YKYuFBtym-VQ6BcRW7SfNWSNNjg1rO9VU">https://vigil.blog/<chrome_find class="find_in_page">2</chrome_find>0<chrome_find class="find_in_page">2</chrome_find>3/01/06/hes-got-the-whole-world-in-his-hands/?fbclid=IwAR3CiGUp_TPCVRCAUISNrGPnV4YKYuFBtym-VQ6BcRW7SfNWSNNjg1rO9VU</a></div><p></p><style id="__gCrWeb.findInPageStyle" type="text/css">.find_in_page{background-color:#ffff00 !important;padding:0px;margin:0px;overflow:visible !important;}.find_selected{background-color:#ff9632 !important;padding:0px;margin:0px;overflow:visible !important;}</style>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-53477671553524202482023-01-05T17:59:00.002-08:002023-01-06T05:43:00.615-08:00Response to Gary DeMar's "More Comments About 'Morons' and 'Idiots' " Article<p>It appears Gary DeMar has written a response to my previous article where I responded to his first article about me. </p><p>As I always do when someone writes about me or responds to an article, I always try to put the source so people can get full context. Here is Gary's original article.</p><p><a href="https://americanvision.org/posts/of-morons-and-idiots/?fbclid=IwAR3tITjWxUb81uYZyLfOb92VRMoKyuk_akpcIlrUF1nJwlIs9iRvbXAiV4Y">https://americanvision.org/posts/of-morons-and-idiots/?fbclid=IwAR3tITjWxUb81uYZyLfOb92VRMoKyuk_akpcIlrUF1nJwlIs9iRvbXAiV4Y</a> </p><p>Here is my first response to that article: <a href="https://www.hoperesurrected.com/2022/12/response-to-gary-demars-of-morons-and.html" target="_blank">https://www.hoperesurrected.com/2022/12/response-to-gary-demars-of-morons-and.html </a> </p><p>And here is the post we will be responding to where Gary gives a response: <a href="https://americanvision.org/posts/more-comments-about-morons-and-idiots/">https://americanvision.org/posts/more-comments-about-morons-and-idiots/</a> </p><p>I did not expect a second article to come out but I noticed immediately upon reading it that Gary DeMar completely dismisses that I made a public apology to him for calling him a moron. </p><p>He basically just dismisses the entire first part of the article and doesn't acknowledge any bit of it. This makes it clear Gary is engaging in bad faith since in his previous article he completely ignored the context behind why I said what I said in the first place. </p><p>I don't need to discuss what I challenged him to do with Frost and his audience because if he does not do any of that and just dismisses what was said it simply speaks more to his integrity as a teacher of the Bible, and the type of character he is unwilling to acknowledge that he played any part in wrongdoing. If he doesn't acknowledge that full preterism is a heresy and uphold the resurrection of the dead and continues blocking everyone who questions him on it and is simply asking him questions or to clarify or to uphold the tradition of the Apostolic Faith, then that is on him for not doing so and ultimately he will be held accountable as we all will in the Final Judgment (John 6).</p><p>DeMar claims: "<b>Lance Conley claimed I believe that the word <i>kosmos</i> in passages like Matthew 4:8, 14; 13:35; 16:26 refer solely to the Roman Empire. This is absurd. Lance Conley's work cannot be trusted. I have never said kosmos only refers to the Roman Empire. Not once in ten books dealing with Bible prophecy and countless articles have I ever made such a claim. If he did not read what I have written on the subject before he made his absurd claim, then he is not to be trusted".</b> </p><p>I have read many of, but not all his works. This is basically an ad hominem. I'd also say that it does not really matter how many books Gary DeMar has written and what I have read of him. <b>He appears to many people, not just me, to be changing his views on eschatology. This is why it is so very important for Gary to clarify what he teaches now </b>so he is not being taken out of context, misunderstood, etc. He claims in both his articles that <i>kosmos</i> is not limited only to the Roman Empire but when one goes back and sees the conversations he was having lately with other individuals, many people had come to similar conclusions I had. Many people, myself included, have seen what's been said the last month or so and have presumed him to have changed his positions he once held.</p><p>I am totally willing to say it is possible I and many others have misread him and mistakenly presumed something. I will engage in good faith, be charitable towards Gary, and say it is even possible Gary DeMar did not intentionally mean his words to come across that way with regards to <i>kosmos. </i></p><p>I would still argue that <i>kosmos</i> being about Rome is found nowhere in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 & 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Timothy, Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, nor Revelation. DeMar says he has pointed out that <i>kosmos</i> <b>"sometimes refers to events that are limited to the inhabited earth and/or the political boundaries of the Roman Empire".</b> I can only find 1 Peter 3:3 where it uses it for something ornamental, like an ornament of heaven but the rest of 1 Peter uses kosmos about the whole world unknown and known. The Revelation only makes sense with it being about solely the Roman Empire if we have a preterist bend to it. If we go beyond the scope the preterist desires to delimit the word, then it naturally, like the rest of Scripture goes beyond the Roman Empire. I am glad to see however that DeMar decided to clarify his position is still like his books because people, not just myself, are unsure of what he believes now since he continually seems to be changing his positions on things. </p><p>Now as far as <i>oikoumene</i> goes, I stand by what I said earlier that it is very obviously not about the Roman empire in Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5. The author of Hebrews as I said before would not make sense if we took Gary DeMar's interpretation of it. Jesus is not the firstborn of the inhabited world nor is He the firstborn of Rome (1:6). He also did not subject to angels the inhabited world or Roman Empire to come... this makes zero sense. Sam Frost and myself noted DeMar does zero exegesis of Hebrews 1:6 or Hebrews 2:5. Instead he just quote mines people. He quotes a lot of scholars he says agree with him. </p><p>I didn't know who this Robert Cruickshank was that Gary quoted but when I went to do a little google search and Facebook searches I found that this person that Gary apparently is in full agreeent with on most things is a full preterist. If I am incorrect that he isn't a full preterist I will correct this error but it seems very obvious from what I could see of his posts and an Amazon book that he wrote the foreward to a full preterist named Dan Harden's book where Harden says quite literally the resurrection of the dead has already been fulfilled in 70 AD. This is further confirmed when we see Don Preston has Robert writing guest articles on his blog sites. It should be alarming that Gary DeMar even thought about and decided to quote a full preterist to show agreement with them. I think I am safe to say that to the public looking at this it all seems suspicious and should make Gary's following demand he clarify his position about full preterism being a heresy or not. I don't see it the way Gary and Robert do on these verses in Hebrews and certainly some scholars agree with my take as well. This is certainly not just something Sam Frost or I came up with. </p><p>Apparently a Calvinist minister John Murray agrees with Gary and says <i>kosmos </i>in Romans 1:8 is simply hyperbole. I can see how someone would think in that manner but I still respectfully disagree that it is only the known world here in context. I think Paul is thanking God through Jesus Christ for all the Roman believers because their message and faithfulness and gospel of allegiance to Jesus Christ IS being proclaimed by the apostles and angelic beings throughout the whole world, both known and unknown. I come to these conclusions based on my studies of the Early Church and 2nd Temple Judaism literature I have been studying for years. Gary is free to disagree but I don't think Paul has just the Roman provinces in mind here and I can find scholars who also agree with me just as Gary can find some that agree with him.</p><p>Paul is likely not in the Roman capital yet when he writes this letter and is somewhere outside it. He has heard great things about them and considers this a great feat considering where they are is the center of paganism. He has the whole Church around the world, wherever Christ is being preached known and unknown, in context, because in vv. 6-7 earlier, Paul tells the Roman Church that they are those who are called to be holy ones and loved by God. Humans in Christ are called to be part of God's family and take part in His governing counsel over the Kingdom of God. He calls them "brother and sister" (Romans 1:13) showing us that he considers them all family. In Roman culture if you call someone this term you are obliged to be responsible for them as family. So with this in mind and the entire Church hearing of this community of believers that are now part of their growing family doing great things, as far as I can tell, this clearly CAN be argued for being NOT Rome solely but being in a broader context, including those places not inhabited by Rome, such as India for example, where St. Thomas went to evangelize to Parthian King Gondophares (clearly one of many kingdoms that are outside of Rome).</p><p>He next quotes Henry Alford saying that <b>"The Gospel had been preached through the whole Roman world, and every nation had received its testimony, before the destruction of Jerusalem (quotes Col 1.6, 23; 2 Tim 4.17). This was neccesary not only as regarded the Gentiles, but to give God's people the Jews, who were scattered among the nations, the opportunity of receiving or rejecting the preaching of Christ" </b>and Norman Geisler's commentary on Colossians where he says that Paul's usage of "to every creature under heaven" <b>"is obviously a figure of speech indicating the universality of the gospel and its proclamation, not that every person on the globe heard Paul preach. In Acts 2:5 this phrase describes countries without including, for example, anyone from N. or S. America (cf. Also Gen 41.57; 1 Kings 10.24; Rom 1:8)".</b></p><p>It's great and all that Gary can mine quote scholars who agree with him but as far as Alford goes, the NT at least from my understanding after Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension marks the end of the Exile and the start of the Restoration which does not end until the 2nd Coming. In Whole Counsel of God podcast, DeYoung (PhD) rightly points out that this isn't just a figure of speech going on and that when Paul says that the Gospel was "preached to every creature under heaven" this does not in 2nd Temple Judaism era only apply to humanity but applies universally. This also includes angels and demons in context. This applies to non-humans, animals, and the universe itself. This may sound odd and far too mystical to us with our modern sensibilities but this is exactly what is taught in 2nd Temple Literature, 2nd Temple scholars would confirm this is found as well. This is also taught by scholar Michael Heiser, Archbishop Dmitri Royster, and more who are just as talented, I'd argue more so, as teachers of the bible and bible scholars as Gary's Reformation commentators are.</p><p>Gary commits bad faith here and an ad hominem here when he claims: <b>These are such common concepts that only someone who has an agenda would try to distort what I and others have written".</b> </p><p>I have no agenda except Christ, certainly not one against Gary DeMar. I have called him to follow after Christ and Truth and to be the best teacher of the Bible he can be, which means clarifying what he believes to the public about full preterism being a heresy or not, as one who teaches the Bible rightfully should. DeMar has not done so and has refused to do so unfortunately. </p><p>I'll say this again as I said in the first article I responded to. I shouldn't have called Gary DeMar a moron. I let myself become angry and said a hurtful stupid thing about DeMar after I watched him attack my mentor and friend Sam Frost with Don Preston and called him out for it, then posted that he was a moron. I was wrong and I apologize yet again to Gary DeMar for calling him a moron. </p><p>Nowhere has it been my agenda or intention to distort what Gary and others have written. If I have misread Gary DeMar, misunderstood DeMar, or misinterpreted DeMar's intentions with regards to his usage of <i>kosmos, </i>then I am certainly not alone in this matter and simply put, for a lot of people, myself included, we have watched what he posts on Facebook and are now suspicious and unsure of what he now believes. I have read a lot of his books and used to use him as a reference when I was a full preterist, knowing him to be a strong early-date partial preterist. </p><p>Just like I changed when I left full preterism, I know Gary DeMar can change because people change their minds all the time. Sometimes they end up going against everything they have written before as well which is why, I can't stress this enough, that as a teacher of the Bible, Gary should publicly clarify and renounce full preterism as a heresy if he does not believe it to be true. It is as simple as that. I also would tell him to uphold the resurrection of the dead as a future biological event as I would any teacher of the Bible. I pray Gary DeMar will uphold the Nicene Creed when it says "<span face="lato, helvetica, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; color: #131516;">And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end" and when it says "I </span><span face="lato, helvetica, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; color: #131516;">look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come". </span>That's my only agenda here is that I, as a Christian, call Gary DeMar to follow Christ and uphold the faith of the apostles and the Council of Nicea. Likewise, Gary should call me to do the same. </p><p>As far as <i>kosmos</i> and <i>oikoumene</i> are concerned, I think I have made my case clear and I think it is great that Gary has clarified now that kosmos is not solely about Rome. That's great! He and I obviously will have to agree to disagree on the NT usage of <i>oikoumene</i> because I don't see it the way he desires it to be.<b><i> </i></b>There is no need to rehash that argument as one can go to my first article and see what I wrote.</p><p>It also should and was noted before that Gary DeMar did zero exegesis on Heb 1:6 or 2:5. All he does is quote commentaries that agree with him. Second, if Gary were presumed correct about his take on Colossians and also says the "end" came in 70 AD then there is no other conclusion one can make except full preterism. If one takes that position we have to conclude the resurrection of the dead, restoration of all things, etc. happened on or by May 9, 70 AD. Anyone with common sense will see that none of this took place in 70 AD. They'll also see quite clearly that the Early Church clearly doesn't accept that to be true and all hold the 2nd Coming and resurrection of the dead to be future. </p><p>As he did in the first article, I expect he will simply dismiss and ignore everything that has been said in this article as well. He may just continue being upset that I called him a moron but we'll see! Stay tuned to see if there's a Part 3 from Gary DeMar. </p>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-25672542572222994762022-12-29T16:36:00.007-08:002022-12-30T17:59:15.003-08:00Response to Gary DeMar's "Of 'Morons' and 'Idiots'" ArticleI was informed today that Gary DeMar had mentioned me in one of his articles.<br /><br />Here is the link to read: <a href="https://americanvision.org/posts/of-morons-and-idiots/?fbclid=IwAR3tITjWxUb81uYZyLfOb92VRMoKyuk_akpcIlrUF1nJwlIs9iRvbXAiV4Y ">Gary DeMar's Article</a><br /><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">I think it merits a
response because it does not give the whole context. In this response article,
I am going to talk about what was said and about the usage of "kosmos"
and "oikoumene".<br />
<br />
I found this whole article odd, since earlier, DeMar had taken the time to
block me and on social media who have been vocal against him for being
unwilling to take a clear stand against Full Preterism. Many of us believe his
unwillingness in this regard is best explained by him being a secret Full
Preterist. It appears the only reason he won’t admit to this is because it
could damage his brand, his reputation and his book sales.<br />
<br />
I hope I am wrong about this inference, and I kindly ask DeMar TO PUBLICLY
RENOUNCE FULL PRETERISM and PROVE ME WRONG. I will literally rejoice about
being wrong in this matter.<br />
<br />
As for the social media block and his article about me, it is humorous he would
write an entire article about me and Sam Frost and I, yet block us so we can't
respond. Don Preston treated me in the same way when he could not refute my
arguments and resorted to all sorts of excuses too. So, since you and Preston
are friends, and you are using the same tactic, it seems like a dishonest
presentation of my views since they are taken out of context. This is a fallacy
of linguistic emphasis. It involves the manipulation of language to emphasize
facts, propositions, etc., in favor of a position to de-emphasize unfavorable
propositions. To quote Knachel, “Another way to obscure or alter the meaning of
what someone actually said is to quote them selectively. Remarks taken out of
their proper context might convey a different meaning than they did within that
context” (2017: 55). Unfortunately, this is how the article is presented with
my comments.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">I agree Facebook is one of the worst places to find the best information,
especially when it comes to information about the Bible in general. It has been
the unfortunate medium of choice where full preterists congregate. Without the
internet and Facebook, many full preterists like Don Preston would barely have
an audience. DeMar himself would lose a significantly large chunk of influence
without Facebook or the internet.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">DeMar tells his audience that he believes </span><b style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">"it is necessary to warn
you to stay away from Lance Conley's posts and comments" as "they are
not reliable or charitable"</b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">. As I said before, silencing the
opposition seems to be the game, because he says similar things about Frost.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">DeMar shares a post in which I call him a moron but does not share the context.
This is misleading, because his citation is taken out of the context, which he
needed to support the false claim that my posts and comments </span><b style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">are not reliable or charitable.</b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> In
context, I posted these comments in William Vincent’s group “Full Preterism – A
Thing of the Past”. There are always two sides to an argument, so I will
explain the context of my remarks. Before I explain the context, however, I
personally want to apologize to Gary for calling him a moron. I said it in
anger in the context explained below.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">The context: Before I made that post, DeMar personally attacked Frost. He and
his colleague Preston attacked Frost together. Preston is a heretical Full
Preterist, but DeMar refuses to acknowledge his heresy. The refusal to denounce
this heresy is suggestive, because DeMar works with full preterists, e.g., on
his podcasts. Christian leaders have a responsibility to publicly denounce
heresies, and a clear declaration of DeMar’s judgement on Full Preterism would
clarify his stance on the doctrine. In the interest of professionalism and
transparency, DeMar should uphold his duty to make his position clear for his
readers. His reluctance to disclose his position and his vague explanations on
the topic raise questions for many concerned Christians. I PRAY and HOPE he
proves me wrong by publicly denouncing Full Preterism as heresy. His audience,
followers, and supports deserve to know the truth about his stance on
eschatology.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Returning to the
question of context, Preston and DeMar both attacked Frost in a vile and
uncharitable manner. I doubt Preston’s sincerity as a researcher, find him to
be a con artist who lies about his credentials and his opposition and engages
in bad faith entirely. I cannot recommend his heretical material to anyone.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">I do however expect
better and more of Gary DeMar’s work. He knows Frost and I have been close friends
for years and he should expect if he and Preston are going to be rude and
ridicule Sam Frost publicly that I will defend my friend. So, yes, my comments
were said in anger, and I should not have made them. However, DeMar should also
interact respectfully with others that he disagrees with.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Furthermore, DeMar also
couldn’t seem to resist attacking Frost in his article: </span><b style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">"The above claim about the use of 'world' is beyond simplistic and
dead wrong. It looks like he copied the poor scholarship from someone else who
passes himself off as an authority on all things Greek and theological [sic]".</b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
If this is not a reference to Frost, then I’d like to know who it is referring
to. Presumably, it looks like it is an attack on Frost. In any case, my claims
are not based on “poor” scholarship and it is also misleading to claim that
Frost tries to pass himself off as an authority on all things Greek and
theologicalk. Frost is a decent and kind guy who does not exhibit anything
close to that kind of behavior. This attack is an example of how DeMar
disrespects people with whom he disagrees. This is a prime example of an ad
hominem attack and a fallacy of distraction, because it does not address any of
the linguistic evidence supporting the claims he makes. In other words, Gary
DeMar expresses the same behaviors that I reacted in anger to here by making ad
hominem attacks all to try and discredit his opposition and make them appear to
be stupid and vile.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">So, while I do agree I should not have called DeMar a moron or an idiot, and I DO
apologize, DeMar comes off as completely hypocritical when he and Preston have
treated Frost disrespectfully and vilely. Again, I apologize to DeMar but also
wish to CHALLENGE him to do the same and publicly apologize to Frost just as I
am also publicly apologizing. <br />
<br />
This concludes the first part of my discussion. For the second part, I wish to
address the Greek usage of “the world”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">DeMar presents a discussion on the meaning of the Greek word, “the world”. No,
it does not always mean purely "the Greco-Roman world" or the known
world. He is simply wrong and overlooking plenty of verses where kosmos and
oikoumene mean the whole world and universe and not merely the occupied
territories of the Greco-Roman Empire. DeMar coincidentally cites a lexicon
that ends up supporting my claims in his article: <b>“c. the whole inhabited earth, the world", "d. the
inhabitants of the earth, men", and "2. the universe, the world"</b>.<br />
<br />
DeMar even admits in the article that <b>"Caesar was not the emperor
of the whole wide world that would have included China! Caesar’s 'decrees' were
only fitting for the Roman Empire"</b>.<br />
<br />
Hence, his own lexicon justifies my translation in context of kosmos and
oikoumene being for the entire world in context and not just the controlled Greco-Roman
Empire. As the Gospels and Revelation demonstrate, the true Caesar is Jesus of
Nazareth, the God-Man, the 2nd Power of Heaven, The Messiah and true ruler of
this entire world and universe. A propos, if even one use of kosmos and
oikomene applies to the “whole world” and nor merely the Greco-Roman Empire,
then my comments are justified.<br />
<br /><br />
For kosmos:</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Matthew 4:8 cannot be restricted
to Rome because the devil gave Jesus a vision of "all the kingdoms of the
world".<br />
<br />
Matthew 5:14 is oddly delimited if Jesus is only “the light of the Roman empire"
and not the world.<br />
<br />
Matthew 13:35 also rings odd if Jesus only says “I will utter things hidden
since the foundation of Rome…"<br />
<br />
Similarly, Matthew 16:26 reads strange if Jesus is referring to solely Rome.
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole Roman Empire and
forfeits his soul?..."<br />
<br />
These examples, to which I could have done more, demonstrate directly that
DeMar’s translation does not fit all contexts.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">For oikoumene now:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">According to DeMar, Matthew 24:14 states, "This gospel of the kingdom
shall be preached in the whole Roman world as a testimony to all the nations
and then the end will come"... That would exclude a whole lot of
non-Romans. This translation of DeMar’s misses the tenor of this chapter.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<br />
DeMar’s translation also faces problems vis-à-vis the 12 tribes and the idea of
Exile and Restoration. DeMar’s delimited reading goes against the global scope
of both themes in 2<sup>nd</sup> Temple Jewish literature. These sources are
contemporaneous with the time of Jesus, the apostles, and the entire NT. They
demonstrate how people from the time interpreted the OT themes, and their
aspirations were not restricted to freedom from imperialism but from evil in
the world. With charity, however, even if we assume DeMar’s translation for
Matthew 24:14 or Luke 21:26 were correct, he would still run into problems with
parts of Scripture like Luke 4:5 where it says "And he led Him up and
showed Him ALL the KINGDOMS of the WORLD in a moment of time"... This vision
is not of the Greco-Roman Empire alone. Rome did not own all the kingdoms of
the world and Rome is ONE Kingdom among many at the time. It would be strange
to try and make “all the kingdoms” (plural) be demarcating Roman territory from
all others. No, more naturally, the reader is expected to be envisioning a
wider and more global perspective. <br />
<br />
One could argue that Acts 17:6 is hyperbole from those who assault St. Jason.
However, even in that context, it is clear that the entire known and unknown
world and not just Rome’s occupation are in mind. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Acts 17:31 clearly fixes the appointed day of God’s global judgment, not solely
Roman occupied territories.<br />
<br />
Acts 24:5 recalls the Exile, claiming that Paul was found to be a real pest who
stirred up dissention among “ALL JEWS throughout THE WORLD". The scope
cannot be anything other than global despite what preterists argue vis. THE
EXILE and RESTORATION in its 2<sup>nd</sup> Temple context.<br />
<br />
Hebrews 1:6 says Jesus is the "firstborn into the oikoumene". Surely,
this does not say that Jesus is the firstborn of the Greco-Roman Empire. DeMar’s
translation does not work here in context at all. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Hebrews 2:5 runs into a
similar problem. "For He did not subject to angels the Roman world to
come, concerning which we're speaking", makes no sense if we use DeMar’s
translation.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">To close the textual discussion, Revelation’s use of oikoumene also creates
problems for DeMar’s Greco-Roman Empire translation.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Revelation 3:10 is a possible place for DeMar’s translation. Perhaps we could
argue that "those who dwell on the earth/world" could be about Roman
occupied territories as he suggests. Even so, interpreters disagree. Some argue
that the context suggests a universal scope for all people from around the
globe.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Revelation 12:9 makes no sense restricted solely to Rome. Satan is the one who
deceives the WHOLE (Gk. holen) WORLD... not just those in one region.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">The same is true finally for Revelation 16:4 when it says the spirits of
demons, performing signs will go out to the kings (Gk. basileis) of the whole
(Gk. holes) world (oikoumenes).</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">In conclusion, yes, I should not have posted comments about DeMar in anger. I
have explained my motivations to my readers, and apologize for my comments.
That being said, on the topic of translation, I have clearly made my case here and
shown that "kosmos" and "oikoumenes" may refer to more than
the Roman territory. Even DeMar’s cited sources admit and state as much.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">DeMar does acknowledge
some global references however too. By example, even if he restricts oikoumenes
in Matt. 24:14 to the Greco-Roman Empire, he interprets the trumpet blast and
gathering of the leect from the four winds in Matthew 24:31 as hyperbole for
gathering those beyond the oikoumene. Hence, in context, the narrative
culminates with language for “the entire world”. DeMar’s reasoning shows that
no language can be used to literally refer to the entire world, since he either
restricts it to Rome or interprets it hyperbolically. Pace DeMar’s
hermeneutical bias, the NT writers could use language normally to say things
like “the whole world” and actually mean it. How else could you say it?!?
(Allison “Jesus & the Victory of Apocalyptic” </span><i style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Jesus & the Restoration of Israel 1999: 131). </i><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">The 2</span><sup style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">nd</sup><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
Coming affects more than Rome or Jews in Jerusalem. It affects the entire
globe, nay, the entire universe.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">I would be remiss if I
did not challenge DeMar to clearly state his position on the acceptance or not
of Full Preterism by him. Is it heretical or not? I challenge him also to
uphold the resurrection of the dead as well since he appears reluctant to admit
the resurrection of the dead involves an ACTUAL raising of physical corpses
from their literal graves to eternal life empowered by the Holy Spirit. This is
Paul’s doctrine of resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. There is no good reason to
reject orthodox Church doctrine, a doctrine held for the last 2000+ years and counting.
DeMar seems to want to use one meaning for all uses with the words kosmos and
oikoumenes, but there clearly are too many problems in translating it as such. Even
DeMar’s own article acknowledges the problems, because the cited Lexicons include
global translations as well. There is no reason to translate the Greek in this
manner to satisfy a preterist pre-commitment to fit prophetic expectation into
a 70 AD framework. We do not have to redefine words or language to fit our own
predilections. Our agenda should be Christ and truth over what we want or do
not want it to be. We are lying to ourselves if we let our own wishful thinking
and desires run wild. DeMar should and does know better. I end this article
with the hope that we can all overcome our supermassive egos and agendas and
follow after Christ and His Truth beyond all else. I'll pick Christ over preterism
any day.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">---</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">References</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Allison, D.C. (1999)
“Jesus & the Victory of Apocalyptic” </span><i style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Jesus & the Restoration of
Israel</i><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">. Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">DeMar,
G. (2022) “Of “Morons” and “Idiots”. The American Vision. Retrieved from url: </span><span class="MsoHyperlink"><a href="https://americanvision.org/posts/of-morons-and-idiots/?fbclid=IwAR3tITjWxUb81uYZyLfOb92VRMoKyuk_akpcIlrUF1nJwlIs9iRvbXAiV4Y">https://americanvision.org/posts/of-morons-and-idiots/?fbclid=IwAR3tITjWxUb81uYZyLfOb92VRMoKyuk_akpcIlrUF1nJwlIs9iRvbXAiV4Y</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Knachel,
M. (2017) </span><i style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Fundamental Methods of Logic</i><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> University of Wisconsin,
Milwaukee.</span></p><div><div class="sub_form_wrapper" style="--tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; margin: auto; max-width: 600px;"></div></div>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-18401764517194619382022-08-30T14:26:00.006-07:002022-08-30T14:26:48.839-07:00A Review of Robert Townley's The 2nd Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ<p>By: LAZARUS CONLEY</p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; mso-pagination: none;">As you all
are aware, I often in my spare time am studying or reading books that have to
do with or are related to eschatology. I jokingly tell people that I am the
true president of Preterist Research Institute since no actual study or
scholarship gets done by Don K Preston and it is basically true. I do at times
go out of my way to study and read about full preterists and learn the actual
history and not the revisionist garbage that many in their cult often try to do
where they attempt to do things like erase Sam Frost from having been in their
ranks or myself as well in that vein. With that, I have had a book on my shelf
for a couple months that I was able to find by Robert Townley, a preacher in
1845 who was a full preterist. I may not be a full preterist anymore but I do
find the history of it pretty interesting. Roderick Edwards has done a pretty
decent job documenting the history of full preterism as best he could and I
highly recommend people go get his book which covers that topic if it interests
you. As<span style="font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin;"> Roderick Edwards rightfully notes: <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">“The history of preterism is a difficult thing to nail down since we
really can’t point to an individual person that is [solely] responsible for
this perspective. To be sure, many claim they are ‘founders’ of views,
including forms of Preterism, but the reality is often a different story...
What makes our effort even more difficult is the historical revisionism that I
know first-hand has happened… It might serve the reader best to go somewhat in
reverse when explaining the history of Preterism or more specifically the
movement called Preterism since Preterism is less a developed theological
position and more of a laymen-led shift.”</i><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span></span></span></a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; mso-pagination: none;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.5in;">For a brief timeline of full preterism, it seems almost definitively,
until shown otherwise, that the first documentation of full preterism was
penned by Robert Townley in his </span><i style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.5in;">“The 2<sup>nd</sup>
Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ: A Past Event”. </i><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.5in;">Robert Townley lived from
1816-1894. He is the first documented full preterist as far as anyone knows and
was also a Universalist about a year later after he wrote his work, but ultimately
ended up recanting both. He wrote his full preterist book in 1845. In his 1852 sermon
in the Universalist Church of Charlestown, Massachusetts, on a Sunday morning
on September 26</span><sup style="text-indent: 0.5in;">th</sup><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.5in;">, he said, </span><i style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.5in;">“We,
on the contrary, fulfill everything by that magic phrase, ‘the destruction of
Jerusalem’. But can we really and seriously refer these passages which I have
quoted from Paul to the destruction of Jerusalem? Can we truly say that the
rejection of the Jews and the calling of the Gentiles, let that mean what it
may, exhausted all their meaning – the meaning which was the thought in Paul’s
mind when he wrote them? I must confess that I cannot</i><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.5in;">”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.5in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.5in;">.
Here we have the first documented full preterist to have also seemingly been
the first documented full preterist to have recanted his position in the
future.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; mso-pagination: none;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin;">Some argue Firmin Abauzit
(1679-1767), author of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Essai sur
I’Apocalypse</i>, in 1730 was one and the first but this is false because in
his work he sought to discredit Revelation entirely as a part of the New
Testament and ultimately ended up recanting his position after Dr. Leonard
Twells, a man he respected, replied to him. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">“[Upon]
reading Dr. Twells’ reply, Abauzit was so well satisfied, and honorably wrote
(though in vain) to stop the reprinting of his work in Holland.</i><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> Of
mentionable notice we do have James Stuart Russell (1816-1895), a man who was almost
a full preterist. He wrote <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Parousia:
A Critical Inquiry into the New Testament Doctrine of Our Lord’s 2<sup>nd</sup>
Coming</i> in 1878. He does believe that there are things yet to be fulfilled
in some sense though so he can’t be counted as the first full preterist. Ernest
Hampden-Cook, writer of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Christ Has
Come</i> (1891) shared similar concepts to Russell but also does similar where
he doesn’t believe all prophecy fulfilled. John Humphrey Noyes (1811-1886),
author of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Greatest Secret in the
World</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Berean </i>was
essentially a full preterist as well as sharing similar views to Russell and
Cook. He was the founder of the Putney commune in 1836, (was formalized in
1844) and also after a brush with the law for adultery founded the Oneida
Community founded in 1848 which lasted until 1881 and had a membership of 300
people with various branch communities. Now disbanded, only the buildings and
their silverware company live on. The Oneida Community was known for being a
perfectionist sex cult under Noyes and practiced things such as what Noyes
referred to as Male Continence and Complex Marriage. The children in the
commune were raised non-traditionally by the community; not raised by their
biological and individual family members. The children upon reaching
adolescence at the age of 14 were made to have sex with the older men and women
in the commune. It is safe to say Noyes was a seriously disturbing cult leader.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">For more information on this topic, if it interests you, you may
find some key starter information on Wikipedia and Preterist Archive website
with a quick Google search. That said, the men listed under notables are not
traditionally to be seen as full preterists. Townley, unless shown otherwise,
is likely the first documented full preterist. This leaves full preterism to be
started in 1845, recanted in 1852 after 7 years, and then various sects of
people in the United States primarily that continued diving into this vein of
thought that Christ came back in 70AD.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">With that, let us begin the review of Robert Townley’s book here.
He writes in 1845 in his preface that he has decided, along with his
congregation he serves under, to quit communing with the Church of England.
This “work” was, he states “delivered in a course of lectures to the congregations
which lately assembled at St. Matthew’s, in this town”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
He contends “most strenuously that there is not a shadow of a shade of error in
the conclusion at which I have arrived” and his preface shows us that he was
convinced he was right and that he knows what he is saying is anti-creedal and
he knows that people will call him a heretic for this but he doesn’t care
because he claims that he says he rejects everything but Scripture</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn5" name="_ftnref5" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[5]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;"> as
a Protestant. He also makes a declaration that there will not be a single
person in or outside the Church of England that will be capable of refuting him
when he states that “the Bible promises no future coming of Christ, and,
consequently, no resurrection of the body, nor any end of the world, neither a
day of judgment…</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn6" name="_ftnref6" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[6]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">”</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">Upon reading his preface, I am personally struck by how cock-sure
this guy is of himself. He writes this when he is 29… Now I am not saying that
a 29 year old cannot be right about stuff or teach the bible (I’m 30 writing
this – LOL) but I will say that when I read this guy I read someone who is
overconfident and arrogant and the more I did read this book the worse his
arrogance got and the more I found him to be quite confident for an ignorant
person.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">During this read, he declares how he hates apostolic succession
and claims that his church congregation has concluded that they must secede
from the Church of England because they have concluded under him that the 2</span><sup style="text-indent: 0.25in;">nd</sup><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">
Coming is past by searching the Scripture</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn7" name="_ftnref7" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[7]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
He claims “we were persuaded that the New Testament teaches the above as past
events, and being so persuaded, there was no alternative but that of acting as
we have acted, in seceding from the Establishment, or laying ourselves open to
the charge of ‘dishonesty and duplicity’”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn8" name="_ftnref8" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[8]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">I see he rejects Calvinism</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn9" name="_ftnref9" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[9]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">
and I can get behind him on that one. He gives something I commonly hear from
full preterists claiming that he didn’t come to his view by reading any
publications or hearing from others but rather this all came from him reading
the Scriptures</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn10" name="_ftnref10" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[10]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
I think he likely is protesting too much here. Throughout his book here, he
quotes publications and scholars like a Dr. David Thom, who is the minister who
ordained him actually as a minister of his sect. I don’t know and we probably
can’t know where he actually got his position from but I suspect he did not
just get this position from reading scripture in a vacuum (I jest as this is
impossible for all of us; none of us in fact read scripture this way).</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">I found it interesting that he thinks that “the end of the world”
in scripture means the end of the Jewish economy</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn11" name="_ftnref11" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[11]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
I wonder if I would read Unitarian works if I would find this being talked about
by more people. This same thing is often discussed and used as an
interpretation by full preterists like Max King, Don Preston, and more so I
would be interested to find out if there are more theological trains of
thoughts like this that could be traced in this time period.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">“I’m not insensible to the fact that the great doctrine of the
past 2</span><sup style="text-indent: 0.25in;">nd</sup><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;"> Coming of Christ, is a complete revolution in religion – it
scatters to the four winds of heaven, doctrines which have been imbibed from
earliest infancy”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn12" name="_ftnref12" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[12]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
I am struck by this statement. He apparently thought that full preterism would
bring about a revolution. If you have read Max King or Don Preston this is all
too familiar to hear and read. Where did this end up? With Townley recanting
this position he once strongly believed in. His defense he claims will be “drawn
from the Bible and the Bible alone”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn13" name="_ftnref13" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[13]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
I see full preterist do this all the time as well and I like to call this view
solo scriptura (not to be confused with sola scriptura) where they only read
the bible and claim they only get their ideas from the bible alone by itself…
an idea that is easily refutable.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">He sees Matthew 24 as every single full preterist does</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn14" name="_ftnref14" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[14]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">. I
found this odd though. He claims that some will object to him and say that we
still experience tribulation as Christians today so therefore not all can be
fulfilled. He argues oddly that the Bible’s New Testament term for tribulation
is actually what he calls “Apostolic Tribulation”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn15" name="_ftnref15" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[15]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">
so basically this boils down to him redefining what tribulation is and claiming
it is “biblical”. This is common full preterist practice to take a term in the
bible and redefine it to fit and cram everything into 70 AD when it doesn’t
work or causes issues with the Bible and its natural frameworks when
interpreting it.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">He shows his biases pretty quickly when he states that the “Society
of Friends” (Quakers) are wise as they reject the Sacraments like Baptism and
the Lord’s Supper which he references in NOTE B</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn16" name="_ftnref16" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[16]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
I am actually surprised that he didn’t reject his being a priest/minister since
Quakers reject being ministers but I guess Townley didn’t want to be out of a
job so he just overlooked that part of their belief.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">He very clearly believes that to believe in a physical resurrection
of the dead is a stupid belief. His NOTE C has him quoting The Biblical
Inquirer where he denies 1 Cor. 15 is a biological resurrection and I’ll be
honest… he makes very little sense when he tries to defend his position and he
is extremely easy to refute</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn17" name="_ftnref17" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[17]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">. I
actually would argue Max King does a better job at defending his position than
Townley attempts to do and that is not saying much since King also is easy to
refute. Townley declares that the resurrection of the dead must be a past event
and I noted when reading it that he misinterprets Paul’s mention of “flesh and
blood” in 1 Cor. 15 and interprets it like a Gnostic who hates material matter
would.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">S</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">o much of Townley’s arguments are that words and terms like “sin,
Satan, death, and hell” are all terms that people use but then claims that all
these terms the people use are wrong and then tells us that his, and his
definition alone, is the correct way to define these terms and declares his definitions
alone are the true and “biblical” ones. He even goes as far as to claim that “religious
systems have fixed their own meanings to these terms, which is a meaning
independent of the Bible”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn18" name="_ftnref18" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[18]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">. When
I read this from him I found it awfully convenient that everyone got everything
wrong, even the ability to read and define terms in the bible until Townley
graced us with the “truth” that only he managed to find out. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">In NOTE G we find Townley deny Satan is a supernatural being and a
fallen angel and says that “angels” also are actually just people… He states
that he has “no difficulty in considering Satan, in this temptation (of Christ),
to signify Christ’s own countrymen, the Jews, or, in one word, human nature,
just as I look upon Satan, in Job, to be no less or more than Job’s three
miserable comforters, and his own self-righteous principle…</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn19" name="_ftnref19" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[19]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">”
Remember that Robert Townley is a Unitarian so he does not believe Jesus is God
Incarnate. Many Unitarian “Christians” are also Christadelphians and those
people deny Satan is an independent being nor a fallen angel. I think that he
may be one of these as this became super popular at his time period he lived in,
also in his area in London when the Restoration Movement was heating up. I do
however have to say it seems completely bizarre to me to read this stuff
because I find it completely absurd to believe that Satan is Christ’s human
nature… I’ve heard full preterist like Michael Miano however say this exact
same stupid drivel as well as people like Don Preston try to claim that Satan
is Old Covenant Judaism among other stupid things. Instead of believing what 2</span><sup style="text-indent: 0.25in;">nd</sup><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">
Temple Judaism actually believed and taking the Hebraic mindset that the NT
writers would have taken, they take these retarded modernist interpretations
instead. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">I</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;"> found consistently that Robert Townley mocks the Judgment Day
and calls it often “imaginary”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn20" name="_ftnref20" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[20]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
He mocks it a lot which I find concerning since Scripture makes it abundantly
clear that there is a Final Day and a Judgment Day for all people one day when
Christ returns. I personally find Townley is simply narcissistic, full of himself,
and a delusional fool. I realize he lives in 1800s and probably does not and
did not have all the vast amounts of resources we do now but I’ve also read
people in the 1800’s who were educated enough to know the things he says are
ignorant. I find the majority of the time that he just doesn’t seem to be aware
of what Judaism taught or even what the Early Church taught, and I suspect even
if he does know it he intentionally rejects them as they are probably too
Judaic or Papist for his Protestant liking (I have kept having to remember this
man is a Unitarian and rejects the Trinity and even common Protestant beliefs
at the time). I find that he often divorces the New Testament writers from
Judaism. We all know that the New Testament is a product of 2</span><sup style="text-indent: 0.25in;">nd</sup><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">
Temple Judaism and written by Jews and Gentiles who accept Jesus of Nazareth, a
Jew, is God Incarnate. Meanwhile Townley rejects all of this and reads the New
Testament like a lot of postmodernists do today divorced from all of that and
trying to make Scripture mean whatever you want it to mean. In the end, he is
what he says he is… a dude with a bible who reads it all alone without any
context taken into account. It’s just he and his bible and his private
interpretation and that is that. He cannot be wrong because he is the sole
arbiter of “truth”.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">On the Resurrection of the dead, I said earlier he denies it is
biological and says Jesus rose bodily but that no one else will rise this way.
He speaks highly of Mr. Bush, a Professor of Hebrew in the NYC University and
says that his stuff is valuable… I think this has to be George Bush, who in
1844 wrote on the resurrection opposing the doctrine of the literal
resurrection of the body. Around 1845, Bush ended up embracing Swedenborgianism,
a strange sect of “Christians” that deny the Trinity and other doctrines.
Either way, Townley likes him and says that Jesus did not rise in the same body
he died in. He is very confused it seems as well when he tries to defend this
position</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn21" name="_ftnref21" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[21]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
In the end, if we put Robert Townley under scrutiny and believe what he says
and compare it to Jesus and Paul’s words then we have to conclude Jesus and
Paul are liars. I think Townley is the one in error here.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">Townley also makes a case for Revelation 20 being a past event and
just as all full preterists attempt to do, he fails to make a coherent or
strong position for himself and it just isn’t credible saying “we don’t find
Scripture to teach the 1000 years to be yet future”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn22" name="_ftnref22" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[22]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">. His
hatred for the resurrection of the dead is ridiculous. He goes so far as to
reject and protest the Burial Service of the Church of England because it
speaks of a biological resurrection in the future</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn23" name="_ftnref23" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[23]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
He has problems with time-texts he finds problematic in the Bible</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn24" name="_ftnref24" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[24]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
This is all too familiar with full preterists but if they would actually
research and think more and do more critical research and read the scriptures
they would find the time text issues full preterists always have aren’t
actually issues and can very easily be dealt with and make sense.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">Of note, to finish this off, Townley tries to claim that in the
Revelation where it says “all will see his face” in Rev 22 that this refers to
the Jews</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn25" name="_ftnref25" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[25]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
He thinks the New Covenant was ushered in 70 AD not by the Cross</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn26" name="_ftnref26" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[26]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
King does this too and it makes me strongly wonder now, as I have not studied
Unitarians too strongly, if this is actually more of a common Unitarian
theological thought than I know. King clearly wasn’t the first to come up with this
heretical idea. Most bizarrely I found Townley says that Christ is no longer
mediating as High Priest after 70 AD and says there is no need for sacraments
like Baptism nor the Eucharist and also tells the reader that prayer as well is
no longer necessary</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftn27" name="_ftnref27" style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[27]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">.
He actually goes on to say that since the gifts ceased in 70 AD that there is
no need to pray to God. He even goes out of his way to mock those that pray and
mocks every church that still prays to God.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; text-indent: 0.25in;">I conclude with this. Pardon my language but this moron actually argues
that prayer to God is meaningless. He argues that there is no need for
sacraments. No one needs to evangelize. No one needs to baptize. No one needs
to take the Eucharist. No one needs to bother apparently. What point is there
to this “faith” of his? All he has done is reduce the faith to an ideology that
has nothing to it. It is just the idea of Christ coming in 70 AD and that is
literally it. Why would this cause a revolution? All this would cause is people
to reject it because it is nothing but a meaningless and depraved idea. This
god of his is just an idea and a stupid idea. This guy needlessly rejected the
Church of England to further bastardize the Christian faith for his private and
lacking interpretations and was left with nothing but a worthless ideology. I
am glad he ultimately rejected this years later. We can read Robert Townley and
see where this stupidity led him. Now King has just repeated the same mistake
and left his faith entirely for New Age garbage beliefs. His protégés Preston,
Bell, etc. all do the same and are with nothing left but a retarded ideology
that only a delusional and demon-possessed person would even bother continue to
believe in. I end this review with a prayer that all who are in this heresy
would leave it behind. It is just an idea. It is not God. It is easily refuted
and has been countless times refuted. May these heretics see the light and come
to the True God.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Roderick Edwards. About Preterism. 2019. Loc. 182, 193.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Townley. Sermon in the Universalist Church of Charlestown, Mass. Sept. 26,
1852.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Firmin Abauzit. A Discourse Historical & Critical on the Revelations
Ascribed to St. John’s. London. 1730.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div id="ftn4" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref4" name="_ftn4" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn4;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> Robert
Townley. The Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ. London. 1845. Preface.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn5" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref5" name="_ftn5" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn5;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. Preface. Iv, v.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn6" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref6" name="_ftn6" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn6;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. Preface. Vi.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn7" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref7" name="_ftn7" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn7;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 2. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn8" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref8" name="_ftn8" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn8;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[8]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 2.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn9" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref9" name="_ftn9" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn9;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[9]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 3.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn10" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref10" name="_ftn10" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn10;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[10]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 3-4.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn11" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref11" name="_ftn11" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn11;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[11]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 4.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn12" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref12" name="_ftn12" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn12;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[12]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> Ibid.
4.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn13" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref13" name="_ftn13" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn13;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[13]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> Ibid.
5.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn14" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref14" name="_ftn14" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn14;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[14]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 6. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn15" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref15" name="_ftn15" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn15;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[15]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 14.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn16" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref16" name="_ftn16" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn16;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[16]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 15. 158.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn17" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref17" name="_ftn17" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn17;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[17]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 17. 158. 160-161.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn18" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref18" name="_ftn18" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn18;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[18]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 16. 18.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn19" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref19" name="_ftn19" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn19;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[19]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 25. 164-165.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn20" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref20" name="_ftn20" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn20;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[20]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 34.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn21" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref21" name="_ftn21" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn21;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[21]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 67.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn22" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref22" name="_ftn22" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn22;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[22]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 98-100. 104.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn23" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref23" name="_ftn23" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn23;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[23]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 110.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn24" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref24" name="_ftn24" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn24;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[24]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 132-133.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn25" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref25" name="_ftn25" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn25;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[25]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 142.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn26" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref26" name="_ftn26" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn26;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[26]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 144.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn27" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20The%202nd%20Advent%20of%20the%20Lord%20Jesus%20Christ%20Townley.docx#_ftnref27" name="_ftn27" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn27;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[27]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 144. 150-151.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-35170860917529709512022-08-29T19:00:00.001-07:002022-08-29T19:00:55.514-07:00A Review of Steve Gregg's Why Not Full-Preterism?<p> A Review of Steve Gregg’s <i><u>Why Not Full-Preterism? A Partial
Preterist Response to a Novel Theological Innovation</u></i><u>. </u></p><p>by Lazarus Conley</p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">About a month ago I was told a new book would be coming out
in response to full preterism by Steve Gregg, a national talk show host of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Narrow Path, </i>an author of several
books and lectures often around the world about the Bible, theology,
discipleship, etc. Just hearing that alone got me excited! I love seeing more
and more people coming out against the heresy of full preterism, reacting to
it, and refuting the vile heresy. In my days as a Protestant I actually have to
credit Steve Gregg because when I was a full preterist and was deeply into
studying eschatology I read and thoroughly enjoyed his book on Revelation
called <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Revelation: Four Views.</i> I
still highly recommend this book to people of any denomination of faith
actually because Mr. Gregg goes through four different views of Revelation and
does a commentary on Revelation through each of those four viewpoints. He was
also instrumental in me learning about late-date preterism and idealist
commentaries as well. I was already planning to buy this book but I was even
more delighted and eager to buy it when I learned Sam Frost was doing the
forward (he wrote the forward for my book as well) and that I also was being
footnoted in this book! I admittedly was totally nerding out knowing that Steve
Gregg who I highly respect was going to have me in his book! I’m thankful to
God that my book is in some small way getting noticed and is doing its small
part to combat and annihilate the heresy of full preterism and I pray will lead
people out of it for the sake of their souls. I decided pretty quickly that
once it came out I would read it and write up a review so here is the result.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Preface:</u> </p><p class="MsoNormal">I enjoy how this book begins! Gregg
immediately points out that Max King’s full preterist positions are weak and
novel and that even the likes of heretics like John Nelson Darby (founder of
dispensationalism) and Joseph Smith (founder of Mormonism) are closer to
historic Christianity in terms of eschatology which is true<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
He points out how until King not a single Christian teacher taught this novel
belief that Christ returned in 70 and all prophecy fulfilled. Gregg points out
his motives. He shares how Don K Preston and critics spread rumors after his
debate with Don in 2013 (which I have watched). I was not shocked at all by his
claims because personally, Preston has routinely lied and spread falsities
about myself and others whether it is directly or indirectly through his fan
base and followers (I often call them flying monkeys). Frost and I’ve
personally been subjected to this for at least a decade (Frost more). I found
it funny Gregg mentioned becoming a flat earth believer would ruin his
credibility because I know from having experienced it, that many full
preterists are also flat earth believers.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 1: Why Not Full-Preterism?</u> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg details the full preterist terms and their positions
fairly and accurately here. No misrepresentations at all. Any full preterists
claiming a misrepresentation is lying here. Gregg is kind when he claims many
full preterist are intelligent. I disagree with him on that. Gregg tells us the
brief history of full preterism and it is accurate. I completely agree with
Gregg in his criticism of the Churches of Christ. While “full preterism is not
the official position of the Churches of Christ… it is significant that its
founder, along with its current defenders (Edward Stevens and Don K Preston)
are all CoC preachers. This movement has always had the distinctive of
downplaying the authority of creeds and post-apostolic Christianity. It is,
perhaps, this predisposition that allowed preachers from this movement to be
the first to reject the beliefs of every Christian theologian prior to their
time – namely the doctrine of the future return of Christ<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
It is absolutely true that full preterist are virtually ALL anti-creedal,
anti-confessional, and anti-historical so they do fit in with the CoC well. It
is hard to argue against that and hard not to see why they are so commonly
found there mostly. Full Preterists and Church of Christ do mostly agree on
these points. Gregg nails it when he shows that it cannot be credibly said that
all bible prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD. He gives a list that I will
summarize here but “there was no ‘appearing in glory’ of Christ in the Church
(Tit 2:13; Rom 8:18), the Church didn’t see Jesus “face to face” or come to
“know even as we are known” (1 Cor. 13.12), the Church didn’t become “like Him”
(1 John 3:2), the Christians…did not have their bodies glorified (Phil 3:21),
the Church did not mature (Eph. 4:13), and his list goes on.<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 2: General Introduction to Full-Preterism</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg here points out how great the burden of proof is for
the full preterist. He rightfully points out that they have to prove all is
fulfilled and this involves every passage about the 2<sup>nd</sup> Coming,
resurrection of the dead, Final Judgment, and must also show us that Satan and
the demons no longer exist and that the present age (post-70AD) is one about
which the Scriptures say nothing. He asks and points out how many Full
Preterists struggle to find any meaning in life for themselves and others as
believers and asks if we should abandon the Eucharist and if we need to bother
evangelizing now, all legitimate questions that need to be answered by full
preterists<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn4;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
He points out how divided and divisive full preterist often are and how
incredible the level of division is since it has literally only been around
since 1970. All in all, Gregg gives a very strong introduction here and there
is no lie or misrepresentation given. Everything he has said here is accurate
about full preterism. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 3: The Parousia of Christ</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg notes in p. 29 that there is “an uncanny similarity
between Full Preterism and Dispensationalism”. This is because they are both
eschatologies made in the early 19<sup>th</sup> CE and because most full
preterist were dispensationalists at one point in their lives. He makes it
clear full preterism is a cult and uses all the same claims that cults so often
do. I greatly enjoyed how he points out that in every instance of the Greek
word “parousia” (presence in English) it cannot possibly be about 70 AD. He
makes a good case for how the full preterist, if they would argue in good faith,
would have to admit to a failed hermeneutic. Instead, they apply the language
to the same event and in every instance and they are found fallacious for doing
so. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">John 5, Acts 1:11, 1 Thess. 4, and various other verses
simply do not make much sense the way full preterist try to make the Final Day
of the Lord a spiritual event. These events listed and prophesied tell us real
material events will happen… Gregg points out the Final Day must be for ALL,
not some. “Absolutely no tangible or visible evidence can be presented,
indicating that, in 70 AD, Jesus Himself descended from heaven, the dead were
raised, and the living raptured, that mortal Christians became immortal, that
New Heavens and New Earth were brought into being, or that there was a final
judgment resulting in every person receiving exactly what their works
warranted. The full preterist has to take each of these features and
reinterpret them as invisible realities that didn’t really bring about much
observed or sensed change in the lives of the Christians, nor in the broader
circumstances of the world”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn5" name="_ftnref5" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn5;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
He points out that Jehovah Witnesses also say Jesus came in 1944 and Seventh
Day Adventists (SDA’s) also did this too in 1844 and how eerily similar that
full preterist are to this with their claims<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn6" name="_ftnref6" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn6;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
I would also add how quite a few full preterists are former Jehovah Witnesses
like Daniel Pike and Holger Neubeaur for example and that Don K Preston was
constantly around Jehovah Witnesses in Oklahoma… William Bell as well. I loved
this quote from Gregg: “It is puzzling why anyone would choose to embrace a
system so fraught with so many difficulties, when a more
exegetically-responsible Partial Preterism exists as an alternative”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn7" name="_ftnref7" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn7;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 4: Those All-Important Time-Texts</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here Gregg begins to discuss the time-texts and brings up
that “since there is absolutely no historical or biblical record, nor any
tradition of the early church, of any of these things occurring, we must
conclude that, if they did happen, they seem to have very little impact on the
people of God. Apparently no one noticed. Why are we asked to believe that any
of this occurred in AD 70? It appears to be for one reason only – namely, what
full preterists refer to as time-texts”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn8" name="_ftnref8" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn8;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[8]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
He gives the 101 Time Texts from David Green and then next examines them in his
next chapter.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 5: Time-Indicators Examined<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I love this chapter. I love how he brings up Isaiah 13 which
says “near” and yet is prophesied 200 years before the event it speaks on. 200
years off but spoken of as “at hand” seems like it should be imminent but it
clearly was not. No one who heard the prophecy lived to see it fulfilled in
Isaiah’s time period. It is pretty clear that we cannot interpret some texts
like the full preterist wants. Gregg points out Haggai 2:6 does this too.
Points out the writer of Hebrews quotes it as well and that “this little while”
referenced is a literal 500+ year gap! Gregg continues on to make his point and
does it well showing that the way full preterists interpret words is absolutely
faulty. One thing I will note is that I did disagree with Gregg’s take on
Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27. However, it seems to me that it is an
acceptable partial preterist position. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I loved how he pointed out in p. 73 that Caiaphas could not
have seen AD 70 since he dies in 46 AD. He points out that he did not even see
the beginning of the Jewish War of 70 AD. Full preterist fail here at audience
relevance (which they constantly yap on and on about) and the importance of it.
Gregg points out in pp. 76-77 that John 21:22 does not help them at all either
and I think that was and is a brilliant observation. I’d only add that John is
also recorded to have died in the reign of Emperor Trajan in 100 AD. He had
literally 30 years apparently to tell people… anyone for that matter… that
Jesus had returned in 70 AD but clearly it was unimportant to him as the last
disciple of Christ to live to teach anyone this and he didn’t teach any Early
Church Fathers anything full preterist teach after 70 AD either… <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg points out in pp. 82-83 that Revelation 20’s 1000
years cannot be a 40 year period (30-70 AD) like the full preterist want. Gregg
correctly notes how every Christian and Jew in history have known the number
1000 to mean a long time and that the full preterist fights it because “it
would destroy the full preterist system and its prior-to-investigation
conclusions about biblical eschatology”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn9" name="_ftnref9" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn9;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[9]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 6: Audience Relevancy</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg touches on audience relevance here, something full
preterist harp people on 24/7. As Frost and I, and no Gregg have also noted,
the Greek word “mello” sometimes does indicate an event that is CERTAIN or
DESTINED to happen<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn10" name="_ftnref10" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn10;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[10]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
Full preterist have no case. In the end, Gregg shows us many instances where
the New Testament writers did not think the 2<sup>nd</sup> Coming and
subsequent events would happen in their lifetime. They just knew it is certain
and destined to happen. He discusses next 2 Thessalonians and refutes Don K
Preston point by point and I loved it because, while I use more or less the
same arguments to refute him that Gregg does, I love and relish seeing people refute
and rip Preston’s stupid arguments to bits. Gregg’s 3<sup>rd</sup> point
against Preston was amazing and around p. 114, he refutes Preston even more so
assassinating all of Preston’s lame, weak, pathetic, and heretical arguments. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 7: The Resurrection According to Scripture and
History</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Great chapter! He points out Max King’s inconsistencies
about Paul<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn11" name="_ftnref11" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn11;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[11]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
He points out how all the full preterists “want Paul’s teachings to differ
radically from those of the Jews, regardless of his strong statements affirming
he held a view compatible with theirs”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn12" name="_ftnref12" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn12;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[12]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
Problem is the traditional Jewish belief is the same as the historic Christian
one - that is Bodily Resurrection. He is correct that Ed Stevens thinks he is
the elect but Ed can’t prove why or how he is since he says it happened in 70
AD. I am glad he brought up what traditional Judaism believes on it because the
full preterist often preaches that they are teaching the “original truth” or as
Don Preston claims: “the Hebraic mindset of the 1<sup>st</sup> CE”. It always
turns out, when put under scrutiny, they have and are nothing remotely close to
teaching any of that. I loved when Gregg brought up all the quotes from the
Early Church! He shows how EVERY CHURCH FATHER believed the 2<sup>nd</sup>
Coming and Resurrection of the dead event were FUTURE! Gregg asks full
preterists “to explain how every Christian of the ancient church understood the
matter differently from J Stuart Russell, Max King, Don Preston, Ed Stevens,
etc. al…<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn13" name="_ftnref13" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn13;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[13]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>”
We’ll wait I’m sure forever. I’ve asked Preston, Stevens, and more to explain
these questions and more and have been waiting since 2019 and believe I will
never get a satisfactory answer honestly from any of these people aside from
ridiculously constructed conspiracy theories that fall on every point they make
when put under scrutiny. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I love how Gregg points out in p. 139 how full preterists
aren’t the only ones who hold to wrong views like believing heaven is the
ultimate eternal destiny of Christians. Too many people erroneously believe
they die and then go to heaven and that is it – oftentimes, they think this is
the resurrection of the dead too. Heaven is not our permanent home. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 8: The Resurrection and Rapture According to Full
Preterism<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here Gregg explains how full preterist see the resurrection
of the dead and the rapture. They believe it all happened in 70 AD. Gregg
explains very well the IBV and CBV views and does it respectfully. He covers Ed
Stevens (IBV) and Don/King’s (CBV) differences over “sin-death” too<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn14" name="_ftnref14" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn14;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[14]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
He disproves Preston so easily over the death of Adam not being just spiritual
death. The sin-death view is easily dismantled by Gregg. All idiots like
Preston, Neubauer, and Baisden do is try to reinvent everything and then
desperately attempt to try and force it all to be about 70 AD – and ultimately
they fail to do it. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Around p. 159, Gregg turns to Stevens on his IBV rapture
idea that every saint was raptured in 70 AD so all those left behind were
unaware any of this “rapture” happened. Stevens, at best, gives us a conspiracy
theory. Gregg brings up a lot of the same questions I have had for Stevens and
I hope he gets some answers honestly because I certainly haven’t since Stevens
seems to have actually ran away like a coward from me when I’ve tried to have
discourse with him over it. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I personally love Gregg’s take on St. Polycarp, St. Papias,
and St. Ignatius who were both born before 70 AD. Both disciples of Apostle
John as well, this seems super silly to me personally to accept that these men
were all clueless and apostates and liars (which Stevens would ultimately have
to claim to be even remotely plausible). St. John himself seems to be clueless
as well since he died in 100 AD without being raptured in 70 AD. I have to ask…
was he an apostate? Laughable! Gregg refutes IBV and CBV easily. “All pegs
cannot legitimately be made to fit a system with only round holes”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn15" name="_ftnref15" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn15;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[15]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 9: Key Disputed Passages on the Resurrection<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here Mr. Gregg “will look at the points of controversy in
three important witnesses: Jesus’ words about the Resurrection, Paul’s
Thessalonian correspondence, and 1 Cor. 15”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn16" name="_ftnref16" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn16;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[16]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
He does all of this. Referring back to Chapter 7, he shows how the Jews of 2<sup>nd</sup>
Temple Period all but the Sadducees believed in a biological resurrection of
the dead. Jesus and Paul, and all the other Apostles taught it as did their
disciples, and so on. He uses the clear words of Christ in John 6, 11; Matt 17,
20; Mk 12; Lk 16; Paul’s many letters and speeches like Acts 24; 1 Cor. 15; 1
Thess. 4; and so on. I disagree with Gregg about calling these verses rapture
verses. All rapture verses dispensationalists use I would argue is about the
resurrection of the dead and are verses about that or the 2<sup>nd</sup>
Coming. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">He makes a great point that while you could say 70 AD is a
judgment for the wicked in Jerusalem, this definitively can never be a judgment
for “all nations” like Jesus says will happen on the Last Day in Matthew
25:31-32. I’d also add not every Jew who rejected Jesus as Messiah was in
Jerusalem in 70 AD. So really only some Jews were judged and not many Romans
were killed in comparison… <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">On the Thessalonian Correspondence, Gregg brings up 1 Thess.
4:15-18. “Full preterists think Paul’s pronouns – especially, ‘we who are alive
and remain until the coming of the Lord’ suggest he expected fulfillment in his
own lifetime. If he did, then he was mistaken, since neither the end of the
world, nor AD 70, occurred in Paul’s lifetime”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn17" name="_ftnref17" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn17;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[17]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
Preston makes this argument all the time and Gregg easily refutes that
heretical con-man. He shows “Covenant Eschatology” is a made up farce that
someone like Preston pulled out of their ass. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg shows what a lunacy it is to accept Preston’s beliefs
that “the Resurrection refers to a new degree of privilege for the people of
God, who corporately shed their Old Covenant status in favor of the New…”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn18" name="_ftnref18" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn18;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[18]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
It should not surprise the reader of Gregg’s to see him refute Preston so
easily since Preston is a terrible exegete and a lying con-man. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg brings up Preston’s feeble attempts to swindle people
to his con with 2 Thess. 1:6-9 where he tries to convince people “that Paul is
using Old Testament language to speak to the end of the Old Covenant… [and]… is
describing Christ’s ‘coming’ in AD 70, not at the end of the world, and the
ones being judged are the Jewish persecutors of the Thessalonian Christians”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn19" name="_ftnref19" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn19;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[19]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
He points out that Preston’s premises about Isaiah 2 are very questionable and
points out that Isaiah 2 is not and cannot be about 70 AD, and points out that
in Luke 23.30, Jesus does not cite Isaiah 2, which Preston claims and continues
to this day to claim and lie about, despite the many people who have pointed
out to him that he is wrong. Preston willfully continues to do this and lie and
deceive anyone he can. Gregg nails Preston on his errors and I can’t help but
to love it. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Gregg’s 3<sup>rd</sup> point he brings up 1 Cor. 15 to
conclude this chapter. There is no legitimate way to read Paul’s letter here
and conclude the nonsensical views that are espoused by King or Preston. Ed
Stevens as well says the 1<sup>st</sup> CE saints exchanged their physical
bodies for different bodies… it is also nonsensical as Paul says that the
resurrection will be biological. I like how he points out that 1 Cor. 15 cannot
be fulfilled because every enemy of Christ has not been defeated. Gregg also
points out how Preston’s heretic theology makes the Cross irrelevant. Preston
the Old Covenant end in 70 AD when it ends at the Cross<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn20" name="_ftnref20" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn20;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[20]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
Loved this quote: “Paul was not awaiting AD 70 to free him from the demands of
the Torah. He was already ‘not under Torah’ (1 Cor. 9:20-21).<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn21" name="_ftnref21" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn21;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[21]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 10: No Marriage in the Resurrection<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I thought this chapter was fun. Gregg reminds us that “in
order to disprove the special claims of full preterism it only takes one verse
that will not fit the AD 70 paradigm”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn22" name="_ftnref22" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn22;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[22]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
He brings up now the topic of marriage. Jesus does say that those who take part
in the Resurrection will no longer be married to a spouse and I like how he
points out that J.S. Russell came to this conclusion as well. Gregg asked
Preston in 2013 about Luke 20:35 and the idea that “the textual emphasis and
the focus is on the Old Covenant Levirate Marriage mandate, not marriage as a
universal concept” is so laughable to me and should be to everyone that hears
it. Gregg rightfully was perplexed and confused at such an absurd and retarded
position on Scripture at that debate. Five years later, he read Preston’s book
on marriage like I did and found it completely disappointing. I completely
agree that Preston’s book <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Marriage and
Giving in Marriage… in the New Creation??</i> “meanders quite a bit, making and
returning frequently to various points of dubious relevance to the announced
subject… [It] seemed to have been written mostly with the intention of making…
[Joel McDurmon]… look silly” which he failed as usual to do<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn23" name="_ftnref23" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn23;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[23]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
Gregg represents the book fairly and points out how absurd it is and in error.
Preston cannot con his way out of the implications of full preterism. The fool
can’t even answer them. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Preston does nothing but a misdirection the entire time. A
criticism I have of Gregg’s is that he is far too kind to Preston. I won’t be.
Trying to craft Luke 20:35 to be about 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem
is in fact something only a desperate con-man or mental patient would concoct
or construct. Charles Meek is another full preterist that Gregg points out who
tries and fails to answer the marriage question. As Gregg says: “No one who
honors and studies Scripture attentively is likely to mistake any of these for
objective attempts to explain the meaning of Christ’s words”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn24" name="_ftnref24" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn24;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[24]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I copied this here because I think what Gregg writes here is
so profound. “Apparently, when trying to promote an interpretation of a
passage, and when one’s partisan exegesis makes no sense, one can fool some
people simply by saying, ‘This is all covenantal stuff’. A discerning skeptic
will naturally respond, ‘In the total absence of any evidence within the text
itself, why am I expected to accept this bizarre and unsupported interpretation
– because you say so?’ The answer is, although full-preterists disparage creeds
in general, they nonetheless have their own creed containing one non-negotiable
tenet: ‘Everything has to be made to fit, no matter how unnaturally, or disingenuously,
into an AD 70 fulfillment’. Many of the advocates of Full-Preterism are clearly
smart people who show, in other instances, the capability of connecting logical
points and stringing together a valid scriptural argument. If they were merely
dull, we might grant them more grace when they advance a critically flawed
exegetical case. Given their intelligence, however, it is hard to avoid the
conclusion that in discussing this particular passage the full-preterist is
secretly thinking, ‘in the interest of promoting what I believe, on other
grounds, to be true it is excusable for me to construct a totally invalid
exegesis for this one troublesome text. If I speak fast and string together a
lot of passages and concepts of no actual relevance to the text under
consideration, I just may get safely past this embarrassing spot in the road
without getting caught. Then we can move forward to another text for which we
have more reasonable-sounding arguments’. Those who actually revere the Word of
God will naturally respond, ‘Not so fast. Whatever other strong-sounding
arguments may await our consideration on other texts, we cannot simply pretend
that your views have legitimately addressed this key verse – one of the most
determinative passages in the whole debate’. I do not like suspecting any of my
Christian friends of being deliberately disingenuous. Therefore, I hope I am
wrong about their thought processes. If their thoughts are other than I have
imagined, they have been at pains to conceal that fact. We have a duty to hold
Christ in greater reverence than would allow us to take sacred words He has
spoken and twist them beyond recognition into something ostensibly more harmonious
with our pet theological theories. The latter is the practice of cults and
their leaders. While there is much in the exegesis of full-preterists on other
passages that can command a measure of respect, it is a case like this one that
shakes our faith in their objectivity and the reverence which a Christian ought
to have for Christ’s teaching”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn25" name="_ftnref25" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn25;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[25]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
Some full preterists will say he is slandering them if they read this but it
just isn’t accurate because as a former full preterist, I can say without a
doubt that this is EXACTLY what these people do. They lie, deceive, and are a
cult. Dissent, challenging them, and asking questions can and DOES get a full
preterist expelled from their little cult very often! <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now as far as marriage, as a former Full preterist, I may
have tried to answer Gregg in this manner if he had asked me this question:
[NOTE TO THE READER THAT WHAT I SAY HERE IS HERESY AND I REJECT IT]. I would
have perhaps tried to say that marriage is not ushered in at AD 70 (this is presuming
I use Preston’s CBV that has the O.C. ending in 70 and ushering the NC after
70) and is no more. Since sin-death is also no more (spiritual death-sin) I
would argue that there is no need for marriage as there is no sin anymore. To
marry today, one full preterist could hypothetically argue that it would be to
go back to the Old Covenant (and some cults like Oneida actually did this).
Obviously there are problems galore with all this but this was some of my
thoughts anyways. There’s no need for marriages in a full preterist mindset it
seems like, just as there is potentially no need for the Eucharist and other
things. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg shows so clearly that when read without a full
preterist agenda, Scripture doesn’t support Covenant Eschatology (CBV) and also
shows us that full preterist, who say they care so much about audience
relevance suddenly stop doing so with verses like Luke 20:35 and ultimately
bastardize the Scripture all for their 70 AD agenda. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 11: New Heavens and New Earth<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Talking about the New Heavens and New Earth, Gregg states: “I
cannot find any reason to agree with the arguments leading to such a conclusion,
even after reading a 300-page book by Don Preston defending his thesis<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn26" name="_ftnref26" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn26;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[26]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>”.
I wholeheartedly concur with his conclusions. Reading any book by Don Preston
will prove there is no reason to agree with him in his conclusions. In this
chapter, Gregg begins talking about misconceptions that people make about
heaven and does a good job about it. We will see a New Heaven and a New Earth -
the two will be united in a sinless, perfect, and dynamic state of reality with
Christ and fellow saints. The full preterist however claims “that in biblical
times the expression ‘heaven and earth’ was commonly understood by the Jews to
be a reference to the Old Covenant, or perhaps, the Temple System”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn27" name="_ftnref27" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn27;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[27]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
and points out how utterly absurd this ideology is. I would add that I have
also asked full preterists many a times if the Old Covenant and Torah ceased
when Babylon destroyed the 1<sup>st</sup> Temple and have had absurd and have
seen this been mostly unanswered by them (no answer has ever been satisfactory).
I loved p. 244 when Gregg pointed out in his critique of Don Preston’s <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Elements</i> book that “it is common in
Preston’s book to find him saying ‘we’ve already shown such-and-such a thing’,
when he should more correctly have said, ‘We’ve already ASSERTED such-and-such’.
In his book he demonstrates no such meaning of stocheia – he only affirms it”.
This is not a misrepresentation at all and is extremely accurate and anyone in
scholarly circles reading Preston would conclude the exact same thing. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 12: New Heavens and New Earth (continued)<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg continues from Chapter 11. I don’t know that I agree
with Gregg’s Partial Preterist take on 1 and 2 Peter entirely BUT nothing he
says here is heretical either as best as I can tell. We just come at eschatology
from different frameworks (Gregg is an early date partial preterist and I am a
late date partial preterist-idealist). Full preterist want to make Isaiah 60-66
and the New Heavens and New Earth all “spiritual” and metaphorical language and
put “covenant” on anything else they have a tough time explaining in Scripture.
I agree with Gregg that full preterist trying to connect Paul in Romans 8 to
Isaiah 65-66 is completely and totally absurd<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn28" name="_ftnref28" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn28;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[28]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
The “creation” or “creature” is NOT the Old Covenant as Preston falsely
asserts. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would also point out that when Preston makes claims like “most
commentators agree” that he is usually lying and deceiving his audience
intentionally. I have in fact fact-checked him multiple times and found Preston
to cherry-pick, quote-mine scholars out of context, and outright lie and
misrepresent the scholars and people he quotes and often claims or tries to
make it appear like all these people agree with his claims and assertions.
Pardon my French, but I call that nothing more than intentionally dishonest. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg points out that 2 Peter cannot all be about 70 AD and
John’s Revelation 20 and 21 also cannot be made to make sense under the full
preterist assertions. Revelation 21 cannot be explained by full preterists and
make sense. Gregg points out that “to describe the Church after AD 7- as having
attained to a ‘perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of
Christ’ (Eph. 4:13) would be to display either an ignorance or a denial of the
facts of the Church’s history”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn29" name="_ftnref29" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn29;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[29]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
Gregg concludes the chapter by asking many good questions I’d also like the
answers to from full preterists that I presume will never get answered. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 13: Intro to the Olivet Discourse<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg here goes through the Olivet Discourse and covers it
through a partial preterist lens. I would just argue that some of Matthew 24-25
is about 70 AD but some of it is also about the Final Day, none of which was in
70 AD.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 14: Commentary on the Olivet Discourse<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg here goes through the Olivet Discourse “verse-by-verse
survey and point-by-point analysis of the three parallel accounts in the
Synoptic Gospels”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn30" name="_ftnref30" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn30;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[30]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
I agree with Gregg that Jesus “For several days had been predicting and
alluding to the impending doom of Jerusalem… His remarks are concerned only
with the fate of the temple and its stones to which his disciples had just
brought His attention”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn31" name="_ftnref31" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn31;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[31]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
“Full preterists and many partial preterists, believe ‘your coming and the end
of the age represent a single event, which is synonymous with ‘these things’ in
the parallels”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn32" name="_ftnref32" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn32;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[32]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
What Jesus said of AD 70 came true obviously! This wasn’t the 2<sup>nd</sup>
Coming though. What he says will happen at the Final Judgment will also come
true in the future. Throughout the chapter, Gregg points out the full preterist
cannot possibly be correct in their interpretation, not even of Matthew 24-25.
I found almost nothing I disagree with Gregg on because it is all “orthodox”. I
might would critique that idea he put in that Jesus doesn’t even know when He
will come back but I will overlook it. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Chapter 15: Gathering Up The Fragments<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here Gregg covers other arguments that he has gotten from
full preterists. If you’ve ever had these said to you, you should read Gregg’s
chapter here. It’s helpful! On that 3<sup>rd</sup> argument he gave though, I
would add that I have never had Preston or any full preterist for that matter
ever coherently explain how Christ could resurrect the just and the unjust in
70 AD and also end sin-death (spiritual death). These two make absolutely no
sense since simultaneously you’d have to say sin is gone, but yet, there is
someone UNJUST being resurrected. How do the unjust get resurrected and
changed? They change in “covenant status” whatever the heck that is? How? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Gregg dealing with the 9<sup>th</sup> argument, I’d add
that the full preterist like Max King and Don Preston both say spiritual death
is sin and IF Jesus died spiritually, they are saying Jesus sinned. King denies
Christ is God Incarnate and says He is just a man so I could see his framework
hypothetically working out (though Christ we should say declares He is God
Incarnate so King is obviously in error) whereas Don Preston’s framework can’t
work period because he accepts Jesus is God… so how can God Incarnate sin? He’s
God… <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree as well with Gregg that the 15<sup>th</sup> Argument
of Preston’s made zero sense but honestly when has Preston ever made sense or
been a coherent arguer? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">On the 16<sup>th</sup> Argument, I also find Preston and his
fellow full preterist cohorts’ arguments ridiculous especially since Preston
consistently has declared Sam Frost and myself to be evil people and enemies of
truth. Clearly, Christ has not actually put us under his feet (presuming devil’s
advocate here that we are in fact the actual enemy LOL – I’d argue however that
Christ hasn’t put all enemies under His feet since Preston clearly still hasn’t
managed to shut the heck up yet). Preston’s arguments are idiotic. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Epilogue:<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregg concludes: “Full preterism doesn’t allow for a final
resolution between God and sin. No restoration. God endures evil for all eternity.
Full preterism is heresy. It is the opposite of what historical Christianity,
following the biblical teaching, has always affirmed”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn33" name="_ftnref33" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn33;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[33]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>…
“Like many erroneous theological systems, full preterism begins by setting up a
restrictive paradigm into which every passage of Scripture must be forced,
however unnaturally. Yet, its advocates seem to require no exegetical
justification for the adoption of the paradigm itself… The ploy of the
innovator is to justify his limited range of possibilities by claiming the
Bible itself imposes that limit”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn34" name="_ftnref34" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn34;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[34]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>…
“The rabbis expected a physical resurrection at the end of the current phase of
world history, to be followed by a renewed physical planet. Full preterists deny
such a hope and claim Paul didn’t teach it. It seems they need to ‘choose a
lane’. Did Paul preach the fulfillment of the Jewish hope or didn’t he?<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn35" name="_ftnref35" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn35;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[35]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">“Full-Preterists insist that all of the New Testament predictions
must have had a first century fulfillment because Paul said that they were ‘about
to’ (mello) occur, and that his phrase ‘we who are alive and remain’ refers
only to those of his own generation. We have shown…that these claims are
unwarranted. The words ‘must have’… make up the core of the full preterist
argument. It cannot be shown that anything like the things the Bible predicts
at the 2<sup>nd</sup> Coming of Christ really occurred in AD 70. This remains
true even if we were to reinterpret the Resurrection as referring to a
metaphorical or collective one and the New Heavens and the new Earth to speak
only of a covenantal transition. It also cannot be shown that all the nations
were gathered before the judgment throne of God and that every man received the
just reward of all he had done, whether good or bad. In fact, no such thing occurred
by any plausible definition. To the full preterist, these things simply ‘must
have’ happened. Why? Simply because they have decided that their artificial policy
of forcing everything into AD 70 must be accepted, though nothing in scripture demands
the adoption of such a framework. I must agree with former full preterist, Todd
Dennis, in his assessment… of the system ‘based entirely upon deductive
reasoning’. Deductive reasoning is a good policy, but requires beginning with a
valid premise. When one removes the artificial restriction created by fill
preterism which insists that all prophecy must be fulfilled no later than AD
70, there remains little of substance to its unique arguments. They certainly
are not exegetically warranted. Much less do the meet the enormous burden of
proof required to overthrow the unanimous exegetical conclusions of every
branch of the Christian faith over the past 2000 years. We have said that this
burden demands superior exegesis, and we have shown that, in that department,
the system completely fails to deliver”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftn36" name="_ftnref36" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn36;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[36]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Agreed. As a former full preterist, I can say full preterism
is a bunch of bad-faith actors, con-artists after book sales like Preston, and
if they are genuine about this belief, they’re mostly misled, illiterate,
gullible, or just plain ignorant and dull. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">To conclude this review, I recommend Steve Gregg’s book to
people to read if they are on the fence or dealing with a full preterist
arguing with them about eschatology. If I ever re-write my book I plan on using
many of Gregg’s arguments actually because he makes great ones. I fully endorse
this book and intend on sharing it with anyone who asks for resources on how to
deal with full preterism. He does not lie or misrepresent their positions. He
is even kind to them and fair in his assessments and fair in his refutations
against their disgusting heresies. I pray anyone that is in this demonic
doctrine that bastardizes Christianity leaves it. I pray anyone listening to
the likes of Max King, Don Preston, or Edward Stevens wakes up and realizes
these men do nothing but bastardize the Christian faith with their doctrines.
Thank you for reading. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div style="mso-element: footnote-list;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><br clear="all" />
<hr align="left" size="1" width="33%" />
<!--[endif]-->
<div id="ftn1" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> <span style="background: white; color: black; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;">Gregg,
Steve. (2022). <em><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif;">Why Not
Full-Preterism?</span></em> Xulon Press. Xiv.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn2" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 4.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn3" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 5-6.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn4" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref4" name="_ftn4" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn4;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 18.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn5" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref5" name="_ftn5" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn5;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 49.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn6" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref6" name="_ftn6" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn6;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 50.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn7" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref7" name="_ftn7" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn7;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 50.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn8" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref8" name="_ftn8" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn8;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[8]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 51.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn9" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref9" name="_ftn9" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn9;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[9]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 82-83.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn10" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref10" name="_ftn10" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn10;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[10]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 93.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn11" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref11" name="_ftn11" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn11;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[11]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 130.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn12" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref12" name="_ftn12" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn12;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[12]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 132.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn13" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref13" name="_ftn13" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn13;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[13]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 136.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn14" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref14" name="_ftn14" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn14;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[14]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 152.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn15" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref15" name="_ftn15" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn15;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[15]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 167.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn16" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref16" name="_ftn16" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn16;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[16]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 169.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn17" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref17" name="_ftn17" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn17;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[17]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 179.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn18" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref18" name="_ftn18" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn18;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[18]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 183.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn19" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref19" name="_ftn19" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn19;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[19]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 186.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn20" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref20" name="_ftn20" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn20;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[20]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 194. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn21" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref21" name="_ftn21" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn21;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[21]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 195.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn22" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref22" name="_ftn22" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn22;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[22]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 198.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn23" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref23" name="_ftn23" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn23;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[23]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 202.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn24" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref24" name="_ftn24" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn24;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[24]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 207-208.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn25" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref25" name="_ftn25" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn25;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[25]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 209-210.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn26" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref26" name="_ftn26" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn26;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[26]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> Ibid.
226.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn27" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref27" name="_ftn27" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn27;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[27]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 236.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn28" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref28" name="_ftn28" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn28;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[28]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 261.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn29" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref29" name="_ftn29" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn29;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[29]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 273.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn30" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref30" name="_ftn30" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn30;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[30]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 291.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn31" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref31" name="_ftn31" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn31;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[31]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 293. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn32" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref32" name="_ftn32" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn32;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[32]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 295.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn33" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref33" name="_ftn33" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn33;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[33]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 365.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn34" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref34" name="_ftn34" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn34;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[34]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 367.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn35" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref35" name="_ftn35" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn35;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[35]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 367.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn36" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20Steve%20Gregg.docx#_ftnref36" name="_ftn36" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn36;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[36]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 368.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-4272100872161281812022-07-11T19:11:00.001-07:002022-07-11T19:11:51.847-07:00A Review of "On Gender & The Soul" by Benjamin Cabe & Some Extra Thoughts<p>A Review of <i>On Gender
and the Soul</i> by Benjamin Cabe - Some Extra Thoughts</p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Recently I was told of a book by Benjamin Cabe called <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">On Gender and the Soul. </i>As some of you
know I have been doing what amounts to research on sex and gender topics. I had
done this a bit before when I was a Protestant pastor and youth pastor as I
often came across same-sex attracted teenagers and young adults who did still
want to live the Christian lifestyle and would often come to me for counsel and
support due to finding the Christian life hard to live since Christianity does
affirm that while same-sex attraction in and of itself is not a sin - it is a
sin to engage in an active homosexual relationship and lifestyle. This
conflicts with desires, is often times painful, often times conflicting with
the current culture. </p><p class="MsoNormal">It’s been a while since I pastored anybody as I joined the
Orthodox Church years ago. However, I do feel I may be called to the priesthood one day, if God wills it. Because of that, I know that I will have to engage
with the current culture and that will very likely mean that I will have
to engage with difficult dialogues with people like I used to. Even if I'm never a priest or laity I have already engaged with this issue somewhat so it would not shock me When I was a Protestant
still around 2015, I personally never had many transgender (I will refer to it
interchangeably at times as gender dysphoria) youth or transgender adults to
dialogue with or counsel. I honestly can’t think of a single one. I know there
had to be some that existed but I just never came into any contact with one.
Since 2015 however, I have found that the transgender community has grown along with the gay/lesbian
community and so with the changing culture, I think it was time for me to
update my understanding and try and learn and tackle this topic so that I can
be better equipped as a Christian, pastorally or not, to follow Christ and also
be able to engage with the culture and be a witness to those who may want to
become a follower of Christ but do not feel comfortable because they are LGBT+.
I may one day end up being a parent to a child who decides they are homosexual
or experience gender dysphoria as well. I think it is wise for Christians to
try to at the very least be aware and willing to learn about these topics. We
don’t do ourselves any favors by pretending that these aren’t issues very real
people are dealing with and struggling with, in and out of our churches. That
said, this is why I have read Cabe’s book. Here are my thoughts on it. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">His
introduction is pretty good. Cabe talks about how today if you ask people you
will get a lot of confusion over what sex and gender are and what we should define
those two terms as. He also brings up a great point that many modern Christians
today have turned the transgender or gender dysphoria issue into a disgusting
and sickening culture war crusade against these people and I absolutely agree
about this. We have people like Matt Walsh making “documentaries” like <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">What Is A Woman</i> who do this all just to
scare ignorant people and try and demonize the LGBT+ community when the reality
is that as Christians, even if we believe these people are living sinful lives,
demonizing them the way he and others are doing does NOT lead them to Christ.
It does not lead them to theosis. They are NOT our enemies. Our enemies are the
spirits of this age. As Paul says in Ephesians 6: “we aren’t fighting against
flesh and blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen
world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in
the heavenly places.” <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cabe has
written this book so that we in the Orthodox Church can try to understand the
topic of sex and gender biblically and pastorally so that we can offer up “a
balm for the souls of those suffering from gender dysphoria”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
How we act out are faith on this topic and what we believe is key for an
Orthodox Christian is expected to rely on the Church, Scripture, and patristic
witness to shape our worldview (and we must follow where that leads). It must
be noted that many of those who we do now in the present and will interact in
the future on this topic do not and will not have the Church as their
foundation. We cannot and should not believe nor expect those who are outside
the Church to hold to the same standards that we hold to inside the Church. Cabe
points out that the fact is that it is an anatomical and biological fact that
male and female bodies exist and that while sex and gender are distinct they
are interconnected. He makes it clear that a lot of the terms like “biblical
manhood”, “biblical womanhood” and “purity culture” are all just mostly
cultural and patriarchal exploitation of the male-female distinction and are
mostly artificial constructs of pop-theologies and I have to agree with that.
He defines sex as referring to biology and the physical body and says gender is
a social construct but also notes that it also includes both the reality of
biological sex and how it’s manifested in theologically sound embodied action…
and that “it seems undeniable to say that gender, as a social construct,
specifically, does exist. It is deeply embedded in our culture and in our own
unconscious perception. Phrases like ‘men don’t cry’ and ‘women need protection’
are two common stereotypes. Nonetheless, one’s performance of these roles, as
expected within certain circles, can be psychologically (and even physically)
damaging”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
I find that important he said this. Too often, in our culture, we have a lot of
toxic ways and behaviors when it comes to how we view gender roles and much of
it is an absolute detriment and negative for American society and people in
general in my opinion. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So for the introduction Cabe has shown us that sex is
biological and refers to our chromosomal pairs and DNA that is biologically
unchangeable regardless of hormone replacement and sex-reassignment surgery
while gender is more than just biology and is social and cultural as well as we
are culturally conditioned to think of certain jobs, clothes, colors, and even
mannerisms as something that is masculine or feminine. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Theologically, Cabe defines gender as: the exercise of human
agency in choosing – with all the innumerable choices in life – how to individuate
manhood or womanhood in one’s own sexed existence in a way that is concert with
the whole Christian faith and when he discusses the soul he is going to use the
terms sex and gender interchangeably because as he will point out, when
discussing the soul it is neither sexed or gendered<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
He adds that simply because a biological male acts in a culturally feminine way
does not mean that they are really a female even if they feel like one and that
it is irrelevant with regards to cultural iterations of gender if men are
homemakers or wear dresses and makeup or if women hunt, support the family or
go to the beach bare-chested because these are merely cultural stereotypes<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn4;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
I have to say that I do think a lot of times, but certainly not all, people are
pressured to think they are gay or transgendered because of the way our society
tries really hard to put people into boxes when it comes to masculine and
feminine behaviors. I think in general Christians shouldn’t worry so much about
things like the man being the homemaker or the woman being the one who hunts or
makes the most money. Stuff like that just tends to feed into a negative and
toxic way of thinking about sex and gender that doesn’t actually bring us
closer to God or theosis. Cabe ends this introduction with a question that I
love: How do we encourage human beings to thrive in every domain of life? That absolutely
should be our goal when this discourse is brought up all the time.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0px;"><span style="text-indent: 0.5in;">Cabe begins chapter 1 with some questions.
Is the soul gendered? Do men and women have different souls? Are they sexually differentiated?
So that there is no confusion, the answer is no. I actually did not know this
before I read this book and looked it up to verify for myself but Cabe points
out rightly that theologically “human beings are sexed but the soul is sexless
and genderless and anyone who proclaims humanity becomes androgynous in heaven
is not Orthodox in their position on the resurrection of the flesh”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn5" name="_ftnref5" style="text-indent: 0.5in;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[5]</span></span></span></a><span style="text-indent: 0.5in;">
I knew that there were going to be male and females in the resurrection of the
dead but I never guess I thought about this in regard to the soul of the human
being. He points out that it is in fact a heresy to believe that the soul is
sexed or gendered and will lay out why.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: .5in;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In Chapter 2 he discusses the way people have viewed the
soul throughout history. He talks of Homer, Plato, and Aristotle’s philosophical
takes on the soul and, while interesting, I found it more interesting when he
finally got around to talking about the Scripture and what it teaches on the
soul. He says it has some complexity, historically speaking but that in general,
the Old Testament distinguishes a human’s soul and an animal’s soul and
declares that man’s soul is higher in status to God then an animal’s. In the
N.T. Matthew 10:28 shows us that Christ Himself distinguishes the soul and body
of man. “The body and soul are closely united, and created at the same time,
but they aren’t the same”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn6" name="_ftnref6" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn6;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">He shows the New Testament makes it clear through scripture that
“the soul is capable of magnification and exaltation, can be deeply wounded or
pierced by pain, and is capable of hopeful perseverance (Lk. 1:46, 2:35; Mt.
26:38 [cf. John 12:27]; Hebrews 6:19). It is also clear that though man dies
biologically, their soul does not (Acts 2:27; Rev 20:4; Wisdom of Solomon 3:1).
Biological death is a result of sin; hence the unnatural parting of the soul
from the body. However, death is not the end for man (Heb. 9:27; John 11:25;
Lk. 23:42-43). Neither is their temporary existence as a disembodied soul. This
is because of the Resurrection of the dead. Even though the soul exists beyond
the life of the body, there will come a time when everyone is returned with his
body eternally”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn7" name="_ftnref7" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn7;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>. I
want you to remember that because it is important. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Chapter 3 begins and Cabe begins to discuss Apelles the
Heretic AKA Marcion (85-160 AD), the 1<sup>st</sup> Gnostic heretic. Marcion he
notes taught many Christological heresies like that creation is evil and that
there was a good deity and the demiurge “who made his creations badly”. At the
end of the day, Marcion taught heresy that Christ was not fully God and fully
human and Cabe expertly points out that Marcion was the father of the idea of
the gendered or sexed soul in the 2<sup>nd</sup> CE. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In Chapter 4 we see him explain what the Church Fathers
say/teach about sex/gender and the soul. We learn that ALL the Fathers but one agree
that the soul is sexless and genderless. Besides Marcion, the only one was
Tertullian who is not a saint and ultimately left the Church as he joined the
Montantist cult. We get a quote by St. Athenagoras talking about the
resurrection of the dead that I found very interesting: “Whether one loses a
limb… or if one is born without parts – they will be made whole at the
resurrection”. Cabe brings it up and adds that this would apply to those who
have had a sex reconstruction surgery to remove certain organs<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn8" name="_ftnref8" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn8;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[8]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We see that St. Jerome also basically argues this point that:
if the woman shall not rise again as a woman nor the man a man, there will be
no resurrection of the dead” so it is clear that for St. Jerome, denying the
reality that there will be men and women in heaven is equivalent to denying the
resurrection of the body entirely”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn9" name="_ftnref9" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn9;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[9]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
It is an undeniable fact that whatever you were assigned at birth by God,
biblically speaking, theologically speaking, you will be raised male or female
in the resurrection. Even if the male eunuch had his sexual organs removed, he
was still a human being and still a male. We have two examples in the Bible
that explicitly point this out to us: Daniel the prophet and the eunuch St. Simeon
the Ethiopian who St. Phillip baptized in Acts 8.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cabe brings up a tough thing for someone with gender
dysphoria that wants to be a Christian to hear. He says a truth: “Christians
must live eschatologically. We are called to live and participate in the
resurrection today… [Also that] “all who come to the Lord in repentance are
welcome at his table…”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn10" name="_ftnref10" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn10;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[10]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cabe brings up theologically that “The cessation of the
divisions caused by these realities in the fallen world, however, doesn’t
necessarily mean the cessation of the realities themselves, but rather their
fulfillment. From this we might draw a parallel to those who are suffering with
divisions within themselves (namely, those who experience a conflict between
their biological body and their inner self). In the eschaton, this division,
together with the tears shed over it will be wiped away; the soul and the body
will exist as distinct realities but will no longer be in conflict. Now in
union, with themselves, the person is resurrected to wholeness of soul and body
with their God-given sex, which will be neither the cause of anxiety nor the
focus of identity. With respect to this, those who have already undergone
gender reassignment surgery but come to the Lord in repentance can live out
their Christian life eschatologically, as all Christians are called to do. But
for them, it will have especial meaning: the hope of restoration to physical
wholeness, prefigured in this life by their restoration to spiritual wholeness.
Thus, whether married or chaste, whole or amputated, every living human being
is able to progress toward God in theosis through repentance”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn11" name="_ftnref11" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn11;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[11]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
He also points out something very specific that needs to be said as well: the
soul is sinless when it enters the world. Souls do not pre-exist. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Logically, Cabe must and does conclude that our “sex is
fixed for eternity, as every human soul will be reunited with its body in the
resurrection; these bodies will be made up of the same parts, including sex
organs… Regardless of what a human being does to their body on earth, whether
they castrate themselves [like a eunuch] or take hormone supplements, they will
be resurrected with their original parts… Furthermore, what a person actually
is will be revealed in heaven. This applies to men who believe themselves to be
women and those who have had gender reassignment surgeries so they physically
look like a woman and so on”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn12" name="_ftnref12" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn12;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[12]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">He brings up “what a person actually is will be revealed”
because, not just for gender reassignment surgeries but also that he will be
bringing up people who are intersex later in chapter 5. We have to make note
that Scripture says we do put off any corruptions that came as a result of the
Fall (1 Cor. 15). <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In Chapter 5 Cabe affirms with the Apostle [Paul] that there
is ‘one kind of flesh’ that belongs to every human being and uses an example of
a man born without legs or a child that did not fully develop inside the womb.
These two he declares rightfully are both human beings and part of the human
race. This is biblically accurate and agrees with the patristic consensus. They
are both humans even though they will both never possess the physical
attributes that are normal for the human body. I agree that they are human and
they have a sexless and genderless soul. This must be so for the sake of
Christology because Christ is male but cannot have a male soul, otherwise, one
could argue that Christ only came to save males and didn’t come to save
females. He then raises a point about people born intersex. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">He says that usually, “there is one set of fully developed
organs while the other is an addition, underdeveloped part; neither is it
mentioned that when biologically tested, the results demonstrate a clear
consensus of male or female (usually in concert with the developed organs)”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn13" name="_ftnref13" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn13;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[13]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
and raises the fact that intersexuality is a biological irregularity<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn14" name="_ftnref14" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn14;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[14]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
and that there are many cases where a human being is born with hormonal and/or
chromosomal variations. He is right that the Church in general does condemn unnecessary
removal of body parts. However, he asks how we should view it when a child’s
sex must be determined in intersex cases? He leaves this question open ended and
leaves it up to parental and medical decisions - perhaps in addition to being
under pastoral advice as well on what is best to do for said child. He even
brings up a scenario where the intersex child may get parts removed and later
develop gender dysphoria and brings up a case where this did in fact happen. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Personally,
around the end due to his discussion about intersex I have to raise a question
here because while he says gender dysphoria should not be treated with
surgeries, he does raise that it is okay for someone born intersex to do so. My
question that I raise internally is that if we can do that with someone born
intersex, why could someone not be experiencing gender dysphoria for a
biologically abnormal reason? And what if we find in some cases that this is
the only real way to help treat this person and help them find theosis and
heal? Cabe says rightfully that we should seek to help these people find theosis
and heal but if I am brutally honest, from what little I have spoken with
people with gender dysphoria, (and I admittedly have not had a lot of those
conversations), I do not think it is at all that simple nor black and white. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would completely agree that in general, a Christian with
gender dysphoria does have to ultimately affirm there is a distinction between
the body and soul, lest we become materialists and in heresy. We also must
affirm properly the unity of the soul and body lest we become Neo-Platonists
and be in heresy. I also agree with Cabe when he says that we must crucify our
minds and confess and live the Christian way as it is the path to healing: to
deny oneself. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think in general it is true that we cannot and should not always
do what we want or desire in this life. Sometimes what we desire or want is a
path that will not help us in our goal as Christians to follow God and theosis.
I completely empathize with the entire LGBT+ community but to live a Christian
life requires us all to make a sacrifice. For them, the sacrifice is going to
be a heavy burden and they should never walk that path alone. We as a
community, we the Church, should walk with them and try to help them continue
the path towards theosis. No choice is neutral. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cabe’s last chapter is about pastoral care for people with
gender dysphoria. Personally, I think this is the best part of the book. He
says “it is important for us to acknowledge gender dysphoria exists and it can
be confusing and painful for those who suffer from it. The best thing he says
pastors can do for the person is to “listen and acknowledge their struggle and
pain” and calls out some of the hateful rhetoric that is preached today by the
culture about gender dysphoric people. Personally, as I said before about
people like Matt Walsh… I have to say that outlets like Daily Wire, Fox News,
and other right-wing news outlets’ pundits like him and Tucker Carlson’s hatred
of LGBT+ people absolutely disgusts me. I think these people are made in the
image of God and should not be hated and demonized for feeling the way they do.
Cabe brings up a quote by St. Isaac the Solitary that “in storms and squalls we
need a pilot and in this present life we need prayer; for we’re susceptible to
the provocations of our thoughts, both good and bad… be attentive to your heart”
and rightfully points out that it is not a sin to have evil thoughts. It is a
sin to act out on those evil thoughts and give consent to the thoughts that is
the issue for we are not our thoughts or desires; many times these are suggested
to us from outside influences. Furthermore, we do not have to act on our
thoughts or our desires in order to be ‘true to ourselves’<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftn15" name="_ftnref15" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn15;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[15]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do agree that we find our true identity in Christ and do
our best to submit all our thoughts and desires to Him. Cabe suggests a transgender
person (for his example he lists a man named John with gender dysphoria) should
try not to focus his thoughts or feelings that he is actually is a woman. Nor
should he worry about his desire to be a woman and should instead focus on
Christ. I agree that taking our thoughts captive to Christ is what the goal
should be pastorally (2 Cor. 10:5). I’m also positive that Cabe has all the
best intentions in this attempt for pastoral care for one with gender
dysphoria. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>My Concluding Thoughts<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m open to correction from priests if I am wrong here.
However, my concluding thoughts are that this book is theologically correct and
does try to be pastoral with regards to gender dysphoria. I agree with Cabe
completely about the soul and the resurrection of the dead. Theologically
speaking, I find him correct for the most part on this topic. I also agree that
we should live eschatologically as if we are already in the resurrection.
However, I am not sure that I fully agree with his premise about the body
though and I say that because of the intersexuality issue and chromosomal and
hormonal issues that he himself brought up. There is a definite right way to
think on it all and I agree that we should hold our thoughts captive but I do
have to wonder what happens if we do one day find out that male and female
brains are different and I wonder what happens if we do learn that we can born
biologically male or female but be born with a brain that is more male or
female (to clarify: a male being born with a female brain and vice versa). I
believe in general we should avoid surgery whenever possible but I do not know
that it is always possible to do that for some individuals. I also do not know
that, theosis-wise, we do some people any favors by asking them to not
transition sometimes. Sometimes it seems for these people it is so psychologically
frustrating and traumatizing that I think an economia may actually be
completely necessary so that they have a chance at living a Christian life. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is not the same as gender dysphoria obviously but I think
on my own experiences being a person born with a severe leg disability where I
was born with pieces of kidney that were not in the right places and a leg that
was 3 inches shorter and a hip and knee that were deformed. I was able to get
surgeries as a baby to have those pieces of kidney removed and throughout my
life have had multiple surgeries to correct my leg and “fix” what is wrong with
my body. When I had my leg drastically changed due to surgeries to correct my
leg, I, at first felt like my leg was completely wrong and still sometimes feel
that way. I have had a friend who has talked to me before at length about their
struggle with being a Christian with gender dysphoria and their desire as a
male to want to be a woman and often wonder to myself if that is not, in some
small way what gender dysphoria feels like to some degree (I definitely know
that what I’ve experienced is a small taste of body dysmorphia). <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The Resurrection affirms for us that the body is a good
thing to God. We don’t bless elective sterilizations and that certainly means
that a gender reassignment surgery is not going to be considered worthy to
bless by the Orthodox Church but we know that if the woman is at risk of death
or has cancer that she is allowed to get surgical procedures like a mastectomy and
a hysterectomy. The same is true if a guy has cancers where he is allowed to
get an orchiectomy. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If a person with gender dysphoria is suicidal and therapy
does not help them find relief, I have a huge difficulty in believing that a
gender reassignment surgery would be a mortal sin in that case. I think it
would be the lesser evil than the person taking their own life. I will also
note that suicide is not always going to happen and is often largely a
generalization that people and news media outlets make about people with gender
dysphoria that they are all in general suicidal. This is not to diminish the
fact that people with gender dysphoria do have a higher rate of suicides but it
is often used to make an excuse to reject any critique or criticisms of
transgenderism or to entertain thoughts and ideologies about transgenderism that
might go against the current “mainstream” narrative.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Thoughts on Pronoun Hospitality<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have seen it argued that we should affirm pronouns that
reflect the expressed gender identity of transgender peoples regardless of our
views about gender identity ethics. Another side will say we shouldn't respect
this because they will say God intended gender and biological sex to be
inextricable and that Christians can only speak truthfully if they use pronouns
which match a person's birth sex. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">My thought is honestly that things are so politicized and
divisive that most people are going to, from the onset, have their opinions and
be hostile to the latter so the fact is we're likely as Christians not going to
be able to reach someone and evangelize to them without respecting their
preferred pronouns and should just aim for the same hospitality that we would
be called to do for someone who's a pagan for example because at the end of the
day God does love them and He did create them in His image. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’d say that in general that if you know this is a person
with gender dysphoria and is not open to Christianity, you should just show
respect and be hospitable. I don’t think this is concession of your beliefs to
do so. I think that having respect and hospitality towards someone like that does
not always equal agreement with that person. I'm willing to be corrected on
this issue if I can be given a decent argument on this but I am in favor of
pronoun hospitality for transgender people who are outside of the Church. If
they are inside of the Church and agree with the Church, I will try and call
that person to the Christian life and standard by their biological sex that
they were born as. If they are open to Christianity I would give them the basic
facts and share with them that God created them in His image and that whatever
sex God gave them at birth is what they will be at the Resurrection. They are a
biological male or female and regardless of their gender dysphoria, they are
still a biological male or female. I would only do this if they were willing
and open to becoming a Christian. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think also that, with regards to those outside of the
Church, because of the way some have done the culture war like Matt Walsh and
other disgusting people in the right wing side of politics like Marjorie Taylor
Greene or Tucker Carlson who demonize people with gender dysphoria that I think
it can and does actually, to our detriment, ruin and hurt our Christian witness
and cause more harm in many cases than it helps by not being hospitable with
regards to the person’s preferred pronouns. We have a position on sex, gender,
and sexual ethics in Christianity. However, the Church has always been taught
to be respectful and hospitable to the world because that's how we draw them to
Christ. We can also not hold those outside the Church to the same standard that
we hold those inside the Church. I also think someone dealing with gender
dysphoria that doesn't know Jesus will be led and drawn to the Lord by our
respect for them and our hospitality. I think of Acts 17 among other passages
and the way Paul interacted with the Gentile world. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’ve heard it said that it feels like the transgender person
is lying and trying to trick someone but I think my response to that is that
someone with gender dysphoria should always be open and honest about that with
anyone that they trust and know that they’re going to have a friendship or
relationship with. That’s important. That’s good advice in general for
everyone. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think not being hospitable can do way more damage to our
witness. I get it. We want to defend God. But I don’t think God needs defending
in all situations. That all said, it’s a discernment call and you have to go
with what you feel led with.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I will also say that I have noticed in some cases that with transgender
people that at least with some cases it can be coming because kids and teens are
having a mental health crisis. Sometimes it can also stem from some abuse taking
place (not from their parents necessarily) and can also be stemming from the social
pressure from society and, specifically for females, some are transgender
socially because of a response from the deep rooted misogyny in our culture that
is happening. Some recent studies have shown that this may be somewhat the case
as females are coming out transgender more than men. That all said, none of
what I’ve said here is set in stone and all people are different and there are
multiple various reasons one may be transgender. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Thoughts on Culture War against Transgender People<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">As I said before a few times, I find the culture war ideas
being paraded around by many like Matt Walsh extremely stupid. Christians
should not be demonizing transgender people. It is evil, stupid, and wrong. I
also find the idea that unless Christian conservatives pass righteous laws that
the Church will be corrupted is insanely stupid to me. The gates of Hell shall
not prevail. What part of that did these people not comprehend? As far as
hormones being given to transgender youths, I think that is definitely a
discussion and debate worth having as there are a lot of reasons religiously
and non-religiously to keep kids off them who are experiencing gender
dysphoria. I think all other things such as therapy must and should be
exhausted first before that is put for consideration as an option. There’s a
lot to unpack with that decision for a child and I think if that can be avoided
it should be as it is a very life-changing thing to do. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The Early Church dealt with polygamy from most Jewish
communities (polygamy was the norm for Judaism until around the 10th CE) and
the pagans allowed just about everything from pedophilia, polygamy, polyamory,
homosexuality too... I find it funny how the Church still managed to have
people become saints and maintain a Christian sexual ethic but now in modern
day American Christians think they have to isolate and insulate their children
from everything because they are too scared and absolutely terrified to even
acknowledge these people exist and that their kid might actually grow up
different from them and become someone in the LGBT community. I don’t know all
the answers to everything but some stuff needs to be worked out and changed.
Paul says to equip yourself and he means to be able to tackle the cultural
issues while also still living the Christian life. We need to aim for that goal
of theosis and many are. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The goal is always theosis. Like I’ve told many LGBT youth
and young adults when I was a Protestant pastor and still do as an Orthodox
Christian, it is a hard word that to follow Christ may end up with you not
being able to do what you want and desire. We’re moving toward a time in
history where it will be increasingly hard to commit yourself to a certain
sexual ethic and for so many who want to follow Christ it already is. But the
answer is not your opinion or feelings. It’s God’s opinion and His design. His
purpose. We don’t accomplish anything by trying to change what God founded in
the Orthodox Church (2000+ years of church history on marriage) but by
redeeming and renovating our hearts so that He may dwell within us and guide
us.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’ll close this with saying that we must also try to put ourselves
in the shoes of parents with transgender kids. Often they are dealing with many
issues going on with their child and are often terrified that their child is going
to kill themselves. The culture war that our politicians and namely conservatives
and op-ed columnist do is not a game. It is children’s lives at stake here. I’ve
seen a lot of posts aiming to demonize LGBT and transgender people. If these
people were really Christian and educated, they wouldn’t be demonizing these
people… yes we can talk theologically about how they’re made in the image of
God and should strive to love themselves the way God created them… however, the
Fall also happened and that’s undeniable… we don’t even talk about intersex
issues in the discourse most of the time! Uneducated Christians on this issue
who may mean well also don’t realize the suicide rate and that these people
need a support system instead of the demonization. We are called as Christians
to tell truths God has given us but as St. Paisios once said, you can have a
large nugget of gold to give someone but it is useless if you chunk it at their
head and give them a concussion. I hope some who’ve shared those posts will
consider this stuff I’m saying and try to be more charitable to anyone who is
transgender or having struggles with gender dysmorphia issues. May God be as
charitable to us on the Last Day and may we all find and achieve theosis.</p><div style="mso-element: footnote-list;">
<hr align="left" size="1" width="33%" />
<!--[endif]-->
<div id="ftn1" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> Benjamin
Cabe. On Gender and the Soul. Preface: II. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn2" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. Preface: V. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn3" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. Preface: VI.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn4" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref4" name="_ftn4" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn4;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. Preface: VII.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn5" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref5" name="_ftn5" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn5;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 3.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn6" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref6" name="_ftn6" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn6;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 19.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn7" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref7" name="_ftn7" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn7;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 20-21.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn8" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref8" name="_ftn8" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn8;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[8]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 51-52.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn9" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref9" name="_ftn9" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn9;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[9]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 59-60.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn10" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref10" name="_ftn10" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn10;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[10]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 73.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn11" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref11" name="_ftn11" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn11;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[11]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 73-74.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn12" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref12" name="_ftn12" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn12;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[12]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 91. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn13" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref13" name="_ftn13" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn13;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[13]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 107.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn14" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref14" name="_ftn14" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn14;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[14]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 108.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn15" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/A%20Review%20of%20On%20Gender%20and%20the%20Soul%20by%20Benjamin%20Cabe.docx#_ftnref15" name="_ftn15" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn15;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[15]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
Ibid. 125.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-54144610652311744602021-12-27T22:55:00.006-08:002021-12-27T22:55:47.054-08:00Preston's "Short Shot: The Redemption of Creation" Refuted<p><span style="font-family: arial;">Preston writes a lame article here: <a href="https://donkpreston.com/short-shot-the-redemption-of-creation/?fbclid=IwAR3KQIxgS60gxpANLUDp-odLxUY8SUeg65f-EBiW2hUgJx4F2EBC0FDyfW4">https://donkpreston.com/short-shot-the-redemption-of-creation/?fbclid=IwAR3KQIxgS60gxpANLUDp-odLxUY8SUeg65f-EBiW2hUgJx4F2EBC0FDyfW4</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;"><br /></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">We are going to refute this heretical piece by Don Preston
because it is important that people understand the truth and Preston teaches
none of that in this disgusting piece that belongs in the furnace along with
the rest of his stupid books. Preston’s writings are here in bold and quotation
marks.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-family: arial;">Dealing with Don’s Heretical Ramblings<o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: arial;">“All three futurist
eschatologies, Dispensational, Amillennial and Postmillennial, say that one day
God, through Christ will redeem physical creation. The earth will be purged by
fire (2 Peter 3) and all creation, including animals– or as I like to say, even
‘Bugs, slugs and mosquitoes’ will be manifested as ‘sons of God’. Interestingly
of course, when you begin pressing the details of the ‘redemption of creation’
asking of the blood of Christ is going to benefit mosquitoes, and turn them
into sons of God, you begin to get all sorts of equivocation and obfuscation.
Interestingly, I have had debate opponents openly state that yes, Jesus did die
to redeem the bugs, the slugs and the mosquitoes! When pressed to give
supporting scriptural proof, however, that is never forthcoming.”<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">Any orthodox eschaton (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Please
note that this does not include dispensationalism as it is heresy and a novel
creation created in the late 1800s by John Nelson Darby and Scofield just as
full preterism is a heretical and novel creation of the 1900s</i>) will have
the physical creation being redeemed at the 2<sup>nd</sup> Coming. God called
His creation good as Genesis says and creation is not inherently evil nor is
the material world something to be discarded of or destroyed. Preston teaching
otherwise is purely Gnosticism plain and simple. He claims all of these
eschatologies teach that the earth will be purged by fire and that bugs, slugs,
and mosquitos will be manifested as sons of God… There is not a single scholar
worth their salt in any area of Christendom that would claim such a stupid
statement. No one thinks that animals will become sons of God like the angels
and human beings are called in Scripture. This is nothing more than Preston
being a typical loser and misrepresenting the positions of his opponents which
is usual for this pathetic clown posing as a scholar with a fake honorary
degree from a paper mill. He claims he has had debate opponents openly state
that Jesus died to redeem the bugs, slugs, and mosquitos and that when pressed
to give support for this position, this mystery person, who he doesn’t name (cause
he is referring to me), gave nothing to support their position at all… <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">As I already said, this is a reference to me. In my debate
against Don over Romans 11, he tried to take me out of context when Romans 8
came up and claimed all these stupid things because I said God loves creation
and will redeem and renew and restore what was lost by the Fall. This naturally
includes all of creation so Don wants to mischaracterize and make hateful
comments to try to make this position look stupid and inferior when in fact, I
would argue Don Preston is just being hateful towards God who created all these
creatures and CALLED THEM GOOD before the Fall happened. That is correct! Even
the animals Don Preston hates and even the pests we all dislike are ALL called
GOOD by God. The “sons of God” are not animals and animals will never become
sons of God. The sons of God are a reference to angelic beings and is a term
used in scripture for human beings, not animals. Humans will be redeemed one
way and animals and the rest of creation to put it in simple terms will be experiencing
this reversal of the curse in a different way. As the first man ruined creation
through the Fall and brought all things into the Exile from Eden, the last man
Jesus Christ has, is currently, and will restore all of Creation through
Himself and the restoration from Exile will be complete at the 2<sup>nd</sup>
Coming. Sin ruins and distorts all that God called good. When Christ removes
sin from the picture, creation will be much different than it is today just as
it was different pre-Fall. I will deal with what Preston says and then give a
clear picture of Romans 8 and the redemption of Creation after that. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: arial;">“Romans 8 is the key,
foundational text of appeal that is offered as proof for a future ‘recreation’
of the material cosmos. I will not engage in an in-depth exegesis of that
marvelous text, but let me offer a few key points to be considered as part of
any proper exegesis- points often overlooked by the commentators: Paul posits
the entire discussion in the context of the imminent vindication of the
suffering of the first century martyrs– v. 18. This allows us- forces us- to
place his discussion in the context of Matthew 23 and Jesus’ promise concerning
the coming vindication of the martyrs. Paul places his discussion within the
context of “the suffering of Christ” (Romans 8:17) a key eschatological
concept. The early church had joined with Christ in his suffering and had to
fill up the measure of that suffering before the parousia, i.e. the time of
their vindication (Cf. Colossians 1:24f0. Paul uses a number of words
that demand an imminent fulfillment of the “redemption of creation.” See my
book, Like Father Like Son, On Clouds of Glory, for a full discussion. There is
simply no way to escape the fact that Paul believed and taught that the
redemption of creation– no matter what we moderns may perceive it to be– was to
take place imminently and soon. Paul places the fulfillment of the
promised redemption within the framework of the miraculous work of the Holy
Spirit, which contrary many believers, was confined to the first century. The
miraculous work of the Spirit was the guarantee (Ephesians 1:12f) of that
coming redemption and resurrection (2 Corinthians 5:5). It is ironic and self
contradictory for many believers to say that the charismata have ended-and they
have- and yet, deny that the resurrection and redemption of creation are yet
future. Those two concepts / realities are inseparably tied together. With
these few (undeveloped) facts let me get to the meat of what I want to present
about “the redemption of Creation.”</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;"><br /></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">Gee I wonder why Preston won’t engage in any of that text
in-depth… could it be because he is unable to and doing so would just show what
a pseudo-scholar and clown school rejected con artist Don is? Paul does not in
fact only posit the entire chapter of Romans 8 about vindication of martyrs but
I digress. Matthew 23 is not forced into anything like some magic puzzle piece
only Preston can solve. Preston mentions the Early Church but none of them ever
once say that 70 AD was the 2<sup>nd</sup> Coming nor the resurrection of the
dead so this is simply something Don has made up and pulled out of his rear
end. Preston mentions his stupid book Like Father Like Son which I easily
refute in my book Hope Resurrected that you can get for free if you ask me.
Preston says there is no way to escape that Paul believed Christ would come
back imminently and that creation would be redeemed but this is all a farce.
The only one who believes this is inescapable are full preterists. No one else
has this issue because no one else interprets the texts like a full preterist
does. The only closest people you get who interpret the scriptures like this
are atheist bible critics who have been refuted countless times much to Preston’s
dismay since he loves atheist like Albert Schweitzer and Bart Erhman and others
who have been refuted but people continue sharing their horse manure… like Don
Preston does…</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">It also doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that
while 70 AD did have a lot of people be killed in the Jewish-Roman War that
took place then… that it didn’t vindicate or help the Christian Church one bit
really and actually as far as history shows us, the persecution of Christians
just got worse and Romans and Jews focused more hatred on this sect who worshipped
Christ. Fact is, Preston’s declaration that the Early Church got their
vindication from some Jews being slaughtered by Romans in 70 AD is nothing more
than a perversion of scriptures and Preston’s sick and twisted fantasy about
his disturbing and perverse god who promises to deal with the problem of evil
in scripture and then doesn’t do so.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: arial;">“It needs to be
understood first of all that whatever that anticipated redemption was, it was
part and parcel of the hope of Israel. Paul is very clear that his resurrection
doctrine was from ‘the law and the prophets’ (Acts 24:14f). Thus, since, for
Paul, the source of his eschatology as the Tanakh I want to focus briefly on
one key OT prophecy of the ‘redemption of creation’ specifically, ‘the
restoration of the earth’.”</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">It needs to be understood that Preston is a perverter of
scripture. He wants to claim that this redemption promised in Romans 8 is
nothing real and is simply just some “spiritual” and non-material thing.
Nothing is really to change according to Preston. Preston doesn’t believe the
resurrection of the dead is a real thing. As we’ve shown however in our article
below Preston On Trial, you can see that Preston is dead wrong about the
resurrection of the dead. You can see quite clearly that Paul and the Early
Church ALL believed in a real and literal resurrection from the literal grave
that would involve the Holy Spirit really rising real people from the real and
literal grave. Dead bodies they believed would be revived and brought back to
eternal life by the Holy Spirit. Preston can deny this all he wants but in the
end he will simply have to answer to God for this perversion he has made of God’s
Holy Scriptures and face the consequences. We pray this heretic repents of his
wicked and perverse ways. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><a href="https://www.hoperesurrected.com/2020/10/preston-on-trial-refutation-review-of.html">https://www.hoperesurrected.com/2020/10/preston-on-trial-refutation-review-of.html</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">We can skip Preston talking about 1 Corinthians 5 and Isaiah
49 as he simply takes it all out of context and perverts scripture as usual.
This is what I want to focus more on this sick and perverse statement of Don’s…
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: arial;">“Now, if we are going
to accept Paul’s emphatic, inspired declaration, it seems to me that it is time
to rethink the traditional concepts of the redemption of creation”.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">How much more do we need to “rethink” and redefine to make
it fit this stupid AD70 doctrine? All for AD 70 Don has made Jesus strip
himself of his humanity at the ascension and become something akin to Yoda
becoming a Force ghost in Star Wars… He’s already got no resurrection of the
dead and thinks sin and physical decay and death go on forever and forever. He’s
already even perverted Satan calling Satan the Old Covenant… What else does
this moron need to redefine for the sake of his idol AD 70? What a perverted
son of Satan! <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: arial;">“It is empirically,
historically, experientially true that any kind of restoration of material
creation did not take place in Paul’s day, and is not taking place now. Trees
are not bigger and better today. Rocks are not softer. Rivers are not cleaner,
bigger, deeper, and wider than in Paul’s day– if cleaner, bigger, deeper and
wider rivers are entailed in the ‘redemption of creation’. Carnivorous animals
still key and eat their prey- including humans if given the chance. The sun is
not better, the moon is not prettier, and the stars are not ‘improved’. The
bugs, slugs and mosquitoes are still nasty little creatures and when you throw
in the virus ‘bugs’ that still rampage through humanity, it is undeniable that
the so called ‘redemption of the earth’ and ‘all creation’ did not and has not
taken place”.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">Paul never said it would happen in his day and time. This is
Preston’s interpretation of scripture and Preston is a pervert of scripture. He
will do anything for money and say anything and redefine any word in the bible to
fit it into his perverted AD 70 fantasy. All that Preston says here is that he
hates God’s Creation. That must be why he stays in his home in Oklahoma making
stupid videos in his basement all day like a lunatic trying to sell stupid
books about why he’s a pervert of scripture. Don gives himself away actually
however in this statement. He says that trees are not bigger and better today…
wonder why that is? Is it because of the continued effects of the Fall? Is it
because humanity’s sin ruins everything it touches – like creation? Could it be
Creation actually is effected by OUR SINS? That’s a fact – it is. Rivers aren’t
cleaner or bigger or deeper or wider? Wonder why? Could it be that our sin has
effected the creation and made rivers worse? Carnivorous animals still kill,
key, and eat their prey? Wow! It’s almost like the Fall is still happening and
so the animals, aka part of creation effected by the Fall, still do things
because of the effects of the Fall… wow… what a shocker Don! The sun and moon
and stars aren’t improved, better or prettier? Wow… It’s almost like all of
creation was under the effect of the Fall by Adam’s sin… Imagine that? And
guess what? It all will be getting worse if Christ does not return and change
it one day. Don says that day has already come… what a perverted and stupid son
of Satan to suggest Christ would leave creation as is and let evil and sin and
death and all the things humanity perverted due to the Fall and their continued
sin to continue. Don then tells us he hates bugs, slugs, and mosquitos and
virus bugs and tries to paint the people who say God will redeem creation as
stupid people for suggesting that EVERYTHING, even the things we don’t like,
are actually called GOOD by God. Only a pervert like Don of Scripture would say
such stupid things to try to make God’s Creation out to be bad and something
God doesn’t care about or something to be discarded. Don proves he is a carnal
minded perverter of scripture who will stop at nothing to prop up his
disgusting perverted 70 AD idol. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: arial;">“It will not do to
say, well, that physical redemption / transformation of the material world will
take place at the end of time. Paul was talking about the spiritual redemption
of mankind from sin. But wait! That concept is not to be found in Scripture! In
fact, it violates God’s standard modus operandi”.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">Wrong. God promises the resurrection of the dead will be
literal and physical as Christ, Paul, and other apostles all contend. Don can
deny it all he wants but he is wrong and a pervert of scripture. You can read
Preston On Trial that I linked above to see why Preston is a bold faced liar
and a perverter of scripture. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">Preston next perverts 1 Corinthians 15 which I have refuted
him about ad nauseam at this point and you can again read Preston On Trial to
see this. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: arial;">“Paul quoted Isaiah
49 verbatim declaring that the Acceptable Time and the Day of Salvation was
present– 2000 years ago. It is undeniable that the restoration of material
creation, a transformation of bugs, slugs and mosquitoes, has not taken place
in 2000 years. It is not now taking place. This means that the promise of the ‘redemption
of creation’ was not a prediction of a literal, physical restoration and
transformation of physical creation. It was in fact, the very thing that Paul
worked for and said it was, the reconciliation between men, and men and God. It
is therefore, wrong to posit a yet future cosmological transformation to an
Edenic Utopia. That is an unrealistic and un-Biblical doctrine”.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">Preston lies to his audience and perverts what Paul has
said. Paul does quote Isaiah 49 saying that the Day of Salvation is NOW and
says it is happening at the moment Paul speaks. In other words, Paul says it is
happening right now at that moment. Paul already has proven Preston is a bold
faced liar since Preston says the Day of Salvation is supposed to happen in 70
AD. Paul according to Preston’s perverse logic is off by about 15-30 years
after he wrote this in 2 Corinthians 6! In other words, Preston’s words are
empty meaningless words of a perverted son of Satan. If Preston were correct,
and he is not because he is nothing more than a perverted mouthpiece for his
perverse father Satan, then Paul would be a liar as would Jesus. Jesus and Paul
and the rest of the apostles ALL taught that creation would be redeemed and
really be changed one day at the 2<sup>nd</sup> Coming. They really taught that
the dead would actually physically be raised by the Holy Spirit from death and
sin would be no more. They found it to be a REALISTIC and BIBLICAL DOCTRINE and
so do I. I find Preston’s doctrine nothing more than a sick perverted fantasy
that he copied from Max King and find it nothing but a detestable Gnostic
materialist-hating pile of drivel that he mostly pulled out of his ass to try
and sell books to gullible people because he has no truth in him and is a
perverted son of Satan who lies and misrepresents and slanders his oppositions
all to peddle his AD 70 doctrine and sell more books and actively engages and does
ministries with active polygamists, active homosexuals, convicted pedophiles, active
drug addicts, wife-beaters, and more. What more needs to be said? We hope Don
will repent of his sins against God and stop perverting scriptures but should
he not, may God swiftly deal with him so he can’t pervert any more people and
take them to the lake of fire with him where he will sadly go if he doesn’t
repent of his sick and perverse heresies against God. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial;">Now that this is out of the way here is the TRUTH about
Romans 8 and the Redemption of Creation and some actual ORTHODOX doctrine. If
you want to know more, I would recommend here on my blog reading my written
debate with Don Preston on Romans 11 where I cover a lot of this. You can find
it with a simple typing in Romans 11 in the search bar at the top. Now let us
begin here. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops: 312.0pt;"><b><span style="font-family: arial;"><u>Romans 8: The Redemption of
Creation (Scripture is in bold)</u><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><span style="background: white; color: black;">This
will not be a full commentary on Romans 8. I will be bringing up a lot of
scriptures though. We already have proven that Preston is wrong about 1 Cor. 15
and other resurrection verses so this will just be a refresher here to keep
pouring on the refutation of this unrepentant heretical son of Satan and
apostate named Don K Preston.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: arial;">I stress this to full preterist reading this.
Christ hasn't returned. There's no evidence for FP. Preston's tried desperately
to make it work but so far has done nothing but seen the train come off the
rails and caused a major wreck and failure.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Adam is the man of soil. He corrupted the universe by His sin against God. It
did not just effect the man of soil Adam alone. When Adam and Eve were cursed
with mortality, they also cursed and effected the entire cosmos. Adam is the
man of soil. Made from dust/soil. Who is the serpent in Revelation revealed as
Satan in Revelation 12 constantly trying to devour? The Church in context, but
those who were born in Adam and reborn in Christ. One could reference Genesis 3
obviously here.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: arial;">
<br />
<b>Genesis 3:14-15 - </b></span></span><b style="font-family: arial;">The Lord God said to the
serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and
above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall
eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and
between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you
shall bruise his heel.”</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><span style="color: black;">To Eve, she's cursed with mortality as well as Adam but also is cursed with
pain, which is suffering in order to bring forth life. A prefigurement of sorts
of what we, all who are of the elect, must go through to inherit eternal life
in Christ as the Church.<br /><br /></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><span style="color: black;">Genesis 3:16 says <b>To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your
pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall
be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”</b><br /><br /></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><span style="color: black;">She's given this as her curse along with mortality as is clearly shown. Genesis 3:17-19 lastly, Adam’s curse. The curse on the man of the soil.</span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><span style="color: black;"><br />
<b>And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’
CURSED IS THE GROUND because of you; in PAIN you shall eat of it all the days
of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall
eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”</b><br />
<br />
It's quite evident that Adam is the man of soil and was made from dust. Just as
his body is cursed and now in opposition to him, the man of soil Adam also now,
because of his actions, has cursed the ground. It wasn't cursed before as a
result. It was blessed and now it's a curse. The ground is the land and the
land is a part of Creation. Creation therefore, logically, has been cursed as a
whole because of Adam and his actions. To deny this is absolutely absurd! It is
not something “spiritual”. It is a real curse being brought upon actual
creation. <br />
<br />
Now catch the power of this next two verses in Genesis 3:22-24!<br />
<br />
<b>22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in
knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the
tree of life and eat, and LIVE FOREVER—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out
from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove
out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a
flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.</b><br />
<b><br />
</b>Question: Preston asserts all Adam’s death was is a spiritual death. Why
then does God all of a sudden have a tree of life that if Adam takes and eats
will make him live forever? It's because Adam's been corrupted by his sin. He's
had a spiritual death and has begun to die the death (he’s become mortal). He's
gone from incorruptible to corruptible. Immortality to mortality. And now he's
cursed with sinfulness. If Adam takes of the tree of life he'll live forever
and still be cursed eternally! What a tragedy it would've been! Therefore, God
in a sense blesses Adam and Eve by kicking them out of the Garden of Eden in
order to eventually redeem them through the Lord Jesus Christ and rid them of
sin, their bondage to Satan, and their inheritance of death! Since Adam's tied
to the Creation being made from it, he who's been cursed and has cursed what
he's been created from, the ground, shall also be redeemed from the curse. This
involves ALL of creation. For Preston to assert otherwise is absurd and betrays
the power of Christ.<br />
<br />
Preston fails to realize that there was a creation by God in the beginning of
time, a special divine intervention in the Creation of Man. There was in this
the existence of the 1st Man Adam in a condition of friendship and perfection
and order with God. There was a Fall from that amazing beautiful condition and
eventually an increase in that separation between man and God brought about by
man’s sins, and succession after succession of natural catastrophes which man
suffered and still suffers from the consequences of sins that only Christ alone
can ever hope to change which He does and has promised to do!<br />
<br />
God wasn't forced to create this universe. He chose to do so out of love. God
created everything and man was made IN HIS IMAGE! Not animals. Mankind. <br />
<br />
<b>“God saw it was good” (Gen 1:31)</b> underscores the goodness of matter
and the whole created order, and God still does this even after the Fall! It's
something God loves and wishes to redeem! Why would He redeem it? Because of
love! Preston obviously doesn’t care about sacraments but this is a great basis
for understanding a basic sacramental world-view – that Creation isn't only
good, but is also a means for communing with God, by virtue of being created by
the All-Good God! Yes! Even those things we don’t like in creation God called
good and loves. They all serve a purpose before and after the Fall and will do
so after the 2<sup>nd</sup> Coming.<br />
<br />
Genesis 2:17’s mention of “you shall surely die” isn't just about spiritual
death whatsoever. If you literally translate Genesis 2:17 it's Tree. Knowledge.
Good. Evil. Day eat (dying) die. The literal Hebrew's dying-die. It's two
different verb tenses (dying and die) which translates as “dying you will die”.
It's an ingressive statement culminating with physical death. At that point,
after they ate of the fruit, they died a spiritual death (this cannot be seen
by Genesis alone but rather with other texts that show it to be true later
beyond Genesis; in Genesis the only thing we see here is physical death
beginning to happen in man after he eats the fruit), but also began to die and
would return to dust. If they'd been meant to die right then instantaneously,
the text would only say muth once, meaning dead, died, or die and not
“beginning to die”, “surely die” or “dying you will die”. In other words, Adam
will become a mortal being and begin dying.<br />
<br />
Preston wants to hate on me for believing God loves His Creation and will
redeem every animal He lovingly created and desired to create and DEEM GOOD?!?
Then let the idiot and hater of God hate me! <o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: arial;">The answer is obviously
and emphatically YES HE WILL and I'll scream it from the mountain tops for all
the universe to hear and praise God for it! YES!! LET IT BE DONE! Let God’s
Creation which He loves be redeemed from the curse when Christ returns
physically in the 2nd Coming! Let all of Creation rejoice! The Savior will
come! Every human, bug, slug, mosquito, microorganism, cockroach, mastodon,
saber-tooth tiger that's ever lived and will live and died and will die and has
and will go to the ground will celebrate the Lord as He delivers the universe
in decay and dying from death; and He'll recreate and restore and redeem it
into eternity out of His Divine Agape for mankind and Creation! Hallelujah!
Preston’s feeble god can’t save material creation but the One True God can!
Catch the power of that! Preston can repent or take all that hatred to the lake
of fire with him! YEEHAW!!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Is Preston going to tell us that God doesn’t care about Creation? Has he never
looked into basic biology and not just been astounded by God’s Creation? God
put so much detail as the ultimate Iconographer into His artwork! It’s a shame
that Preston doesn’t think that God cares about Creation whatsoever one bit and
just will let it all decay into nothingness. Preston seems to believe that ex
nihilo means material creation has to go nihil ad or obliuionem decidet.<br />
<br />
God commanded Adam to be a caretaker of the Garden of Eden! To name the
animals! It becomes more real when you put a name to it! More care is put into
it when you name it and in Adam’s case he has to take care of it! When we give
something a name we give God’s Creation more Being, more of an existence! We
make it more of a Reality! God cares about Creation even if Preston the Pervert
doesn’t and hates it. <br />
<br />
Matthew 6:26-34 NKJV comes to mind!<br />
<br />
<b>26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather
into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than
they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one [a]cubit to his [b]stature? 28
“So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they
grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in
all his glory was not [c]arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes
the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven,
will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 “Therefore do not
worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we
wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly
Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of
God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34
Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own
things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.</b><br />
<b><br />
</b>It’s quite clear God cares about His Creation and loves it! If God didn’t,
He wouldn’t have bothered to become one of us as a human being in the
Incarnation, living, dying, and bleeding for us. He wouldn't've bothered to
come at all if He didn’t love and care about His Creation.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;">If corruption is the futility of physical
corruptibility and mortality, and “all creation” as Romans 8 says is to be
released from that, then this demands the resurrection of “all creation” that
was ever subjected to that futility of physical corruption. YES! All of
Creation will be redeemed and restored! Not just man but the entire Cosmos! All
Creation!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: arial;">In Romans 8:21 it uses the Greek word phthora. In context, phthora has in
general two definitions but one also has to take the sentence itself in the
verses into consideration when it is in usage in the NT.<br /><br /></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: arial;">One definition of phthora is: corruption, perishing, destruction.<br />a) That which is subject to corruption physically; what is perishable.<br />b) In the Christian sense, it can mean eternal misery.<br />
<br />
Another 2nd definition of the word is that it can be used in a more ethical
sense for corruption or moral decay. Phthora is used in Romans 8:21, 1
Corinthians 15:42, 1 Corinthians 15:50, Galatians 6:8, Colossians 2:22, 2 Peter
1:4, 2 Peter 2:12, 2 Peter 2:19. For Romans 8:21 it means that which is corrupt
and it's physical. <o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;">I fully acknowledge phthora could be used in an
ethical sense or moral decay but to clarify, in Romans 8:21 phthora isn't being
used that way. It's instead being used to mean physical corruption and physical
decay. And this is obvious if you just read the chapter… more specifically, starting
at v. 18: </span><b style="font-family: arial;">“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not
worth comparing with the glory that’s to be revealed to us”</b><span style="font-family: arial;">… This verse
introduces the 3-fold testimony given to the Christian destiny, which is
sharply contrasted with the sufferings just mentioned… </span><b style="font-family: arial;">“the glory to be
revealed to us”</b><span style="font-family: arial;">: Paul reminds his readers that although suffering is a sign
of the authentic Christian experience, it's only a transition to the assured
glory that awaits them in the eschaton’s completion.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: arial;">
<br />
V. 19: <b>“For the created universe waits with eager longing for the God’s
sons to be revealed”</b>: Paul discloses his view of the created world, which in
its chaotic state manifests its cosmic striving toward the very goal set for
man himself. He affirms the solidarity of the human and subhuman world in its
share in the redemption of Christ. It recalls God’s promise to Noah of the
covenant to be made “between myself and you and every living creature” (Gen
9:12-13; Cf. Ps 135). The noun ktisis denotes “material creation” apart from
man (see v.23 if you’re confused). Created for man, it was cursed as a result
of Adam’s sin (Gen 3:17), and since then it has been in a state of abnormality
or frustration, according to Paul, being subject to corruption itself. And yet,
he sees it sharing in man’s destiny; for it too – through him – is somehow
redeemed, freed from its natural proclivity. <o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: arial;">V.20-21: <b>“For it was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but
because of him who subjected it, in hope that the created universe itself will
be set free from its bondage to decay/corruption and obtain the freedom of the
glory of the children of God”.</b><br />
The frustration of material creation is its inability to realize its goal as it
should. Before Adam’s sin, material creation is depicted in Genesis as subject
to him, just as he was to God (Gen 1:28). But mans’ sin disrupted the
subordination and introduced abnormality and futility.<br /><b><br /></b></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>“But BY HIM who subjected it in [the] hope, that creation itself would be
freed from the bondage of decay””</b>: Paul refers to God, who cursed the
ground because of Adam’s sin (Gen 3:17). “By him” (dia with the acc., as in Rom
3:25; John 6:57; Sirach 15:11) means God in this view. The “hope” (eph’elpidi,
“in, with hope”) expresses not God’s hope, but the hope given creation itself
by him who subjected it (referring to hypotaxanta of v.20). It also reads hoti
(that) instead of dioti at the beginning of v.21; this conjunction introduces
the hope given to creation. <o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: arial;">This seems to be the
most natural interpretation of this verse, despite the fact that the use of dia
with an accusative is not common. Paul's saying here that God, though he cursed
the ground because of Adam’s sin, still gives it hope of sharing in man’s
redemption. Redeemed humanity will live in peace with God in a world
transformed by His Spirit. Paul sees this condition as an aspiration of all
creation. “decay”” not just moral corruption, but the law of physical decay
found in nature, the reign of dissolution and death. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: arial;">For Paul, the created
physical universe isn't to be a mere spectator of man’s triumphant glory and
freedom, but is to share in it. When the children of God are revealed in glory,
death will have no more dominion over them, and the material world will also be
emancipated from this “last enemy” (1 Cor 15:23-38). What Paul teaches here
will be developed in his letters in captivity in his notions of the
recapitulation of all things in Christ.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: arial;">v. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the
pains of childbirth until now…<br />
<br />
Paul adopts the image of the rebirth of nature to a woman’s travail to express
the tortous convulsions of a frustrated material creation, as he sees it. It
groans in hope and expectation but also in pain/suffering. There really is a
suffering bringing about glory going on here with Paul and it’s astounding! The
compound verb (synodinei) expresses the concerted agony of the universe in all
its parts.<br />
<br />
V. 23 – And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits
of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we weait eagerly for adoption as sons, the
redemption of our bodies”.<br />
<br />
“we ourselves”: Not only the material universe bears testimony to the Christian
destiny but Christians themselves do too also by the hope that they have – a
hope based on the gift of the Spirit already possessed! “Who have the
firstfruits of the Spirit: The Spirit has already been given to the Christians
as the principle of the new life. What a great promise of things to come thanks
to Christ who is already working this change in us through God the Holy Spirit!
Hallelujah!<br />
<br />
Catch the power of that!<br />
<br />
Paul uses phthora the same way in Romans 8:21 that he uses it in 1 Cor. 15:42…
Preston would never talk about this one or 1 Cor. 15:49 or 1 Cor. 15:50 because
if he did he would have to deal with Paul talking about actual dead people
rising from the literal grave and becoming immortal beings through the Holy
Spirit.<br />
<br />
15:42 says <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">“So also is the resurrection
of the dead. It is sown a corrupt body, it is raised an uncorrupted body”</b>.
This is physical resurrection. You can also find Clement in agreement later in
1 Clement… but Preston will just call Clement (who is mentioned in the bible) a
liar because Preston thinks everyone post AD70 is an apostate until he, by
magic, came into this world and brought us all himself as God’s theological
gift to the world.<br />
<br />
So what does 15:42’s use of phthora mean? Corruption… decaying body… Simple.<br />
<br />
Our bodily physical existence is right now one of corruption, dishonor, and
weakness, and these things characterize this present age. Now, in this vale of
tears, all is illness, and loss, weakness, failure, and futility, the
humiliation of aging and death. We’ll one day end our earthly existence, being
“sown” like seeds in the earth in their state. But it'll be otherwise in the
future age to come as Christ hasn’t returned yet. Our bodily existence then at
that time will conform to the glory of that coming age and will be one of
“incorruption, non-decay, glory, and power”, as all these earthly things are
swallowed up in the endless triumph of Christ and His Resurrection and our
Resurrection! Now our “body” and existence is “soulish” (psuchikos), that which
is dominated by the soul (psuche) or the life of this age – hence, “worldly,
unspiritual”. James 3:15 uses the word to characterize the wisdom of this world
which is also “earthly and demonic”.<br />
<br />
Our present bodily existence is characterized by the world of the senses, with
all its weakness and limitations. In the age to come, our bodily existence will
be “spiritual” (pneumatikos). That is, it'll be characterized by the boundless
energies of the Divine Spirit, being freed from preent limitations of this
sensual existence… recall what I’ve said about Romans 8:21 and it'll all be
clear!<br />
<br />
This humble and earthly (psuchikos) aspect of our existence is expressed in
Scripture by Genesis 2:7 LXX that “the 1st man, Adam, became a living soul”
(psuche). Our way of life inherited from Adam, the originator of our race, is
characterized by his limits. He was “from the earth” and thus, “made of dust”
(choikos), sharing all the humble lowliness of the earth beneath his feet.
We're the same, “bearing the image of the one made of dust” sharing this age’s
humiliations. But, not forever, for the “soulish” will give place to the
spiritual in the age to come. We mustn’t expect the spiritual to come first! We
must wait! It'll come! In Christ, the fullness and fulfillment of the human
nature to its greatness will become for us in the last Adam the life-giving
spirit! Paul contrasts our 1st state, from Adam, with our final state, from
Christ. We shall all share the glory of Christ’s life of “heaven” bearing His
celestial “eikon” at the resurrection which will be visible because HE IS
CURRENTLY PHYSICAL.<br />
<br />
Now to 1 Cor 15:50… What does 1 Cor 15:50’s use of phthora mean? We’ve found
what 1 Cor 15:42 meant without Preston even mentioning it for some odd reason!<br />
<br />
Pretty simple. 1 Cor 15:50 says “Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood
cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the decay inherit the non-decay”.<br />
<br />
It means corruption obviously. Physical decay. Because physical decay doesn't
inherit the Kingdom of God obviously. Romans 8 explains this as well. We and
creation shall be made free from the decay and 1 Cor 15 says we'll physically
be raised uncorrupt because Christ raised physically incorruptible.<br />
<br />
Note also that when Paul says flesh and blood here he's specifically talking
about the works of the flesh and blood being what doesn’t inherit the kingdom
of God. We aren’t Gnostics. Your physical body and skin isn’t evil. It’s what
you do with your physical body and skin that can be profane and evil. That's
what will not inherit the Kingdom of God because it does nothing but corrupt if
you constantly use your body for evil instead of using it to glorify Christ.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: arial;">With that, I think this
is more than enough to show that Don Preston is debunked and shown to be nothing
more than a worthless pseudo-scholar and perverter of scripture. Preston is
debunked and his works belong in a furnace or to be used when you run out of
toilet paper. May this perverted son of the devil repent or be dealt with
swiftly by God so he can no longer blaspheme and destroy other people’s faith
in God and lead people astray with him.</span></p>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-4566844293646044722021-12-11T19:29:00.004-08:002021-12-18T14:35:36.672-08:00Debating Don Preston: My 3rd (Final) Affirmative & Don Preston's Final Negative / My Response to his final negative<p><b><u>My Final Affirmative:</u></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">For this 3<sup>rd</sup> Affirmative, I am just going
to give a summary of the debate and discuss the 1<sup>st</sup> and 2<sup>nd</sup>
Negative Preston gave in response since Preston has decided to engage in
nothing more than ad hominem and other fallacies and downright slander against
me in his second negative… I have no more reason to take this debate seriously
since Preston cannot find it within himself to be honorable and engage in
proper decorum with a formal written debate. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Summary
of the Debate So Far<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">In summary, Mr. Preston and I began this debate with
the propositions that Preston would definitively prove the Revelation was written
in an early date (pre-70 CE) and I would argue that though not definitive (due
to intellectual honesty in academia/scholarship) the Revelation was likely
written after 70 CE. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">We began this debate with a Q&A where I answered
all questions that Preston asked me to give. When he was to answer the
questions I raised, he did not answer questions 1 nor 5 which one can read when
they read the Q&A section of the debate. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">In Preston’s First, Second, and Third Affirmative,
Preston did a lot of interpreting “the Bible” but nowhere unfortunately for
him, did he manage at any point to definitively prove that the Revelation was
written before 70 CE. To summarize this part of the debate, Mr. Preston
essentially was claiming as his defense: “Revelation was written before 70 CE
because this is my interpretation of Revelation”; in other words, this is true
because I said and declared it is so. This, of course, is not helpful or useful
by any standard of academia nor scholarship and would not pass by any standard.
At no point did he confirm or give any definitive proof to defend his claim. In
other words, Preston has to, without any doubt, establish as an established
fact that definitively and conclusively the Revelation was written before 70
CE. Obviously, he does not and any reader of these debates can see for
themselves that he has not done so. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">In his first affirmative, he continuously attempted to
change what the debate is about. It is not about how one interprets the
religious text of Revelation nor the Bible but is instead about when this text,
itself, was written. This is clear from the premise and the objectives we both
agreed to in the debate propositions that the reader can easily read. Instead
of sticking to the debate as planned, Preston continuously employed fallacy
after fallacy with constant misrepresentations, and unfortunately his entire
first affirmative was filled with ad hominem arguments as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">In his second affirmative, after I gave my negative as
prescribed for the debate, this unscholarly and unprofessional behavior just
continued unfortunately where he gave a lot of “Scripture” and his
interpretation of these scriptures but not a single time was he able to give
anything that definitively proves Revelation was written before 70 CE, which is
what his objective was to be for this debate. As anyone who reads it can see,
he misrepresents my positions and decides to break the rules countless times
bringing up comments on Facebook with other individuals. That would not hold
water in any formal debate and would he have presented “Sergius Bale said this
on Facebook” in the middle of a debate in a university setting he would not be
asked back again due to the lack of professionalism and inability to stick to
debate standards and rules. Quite frankly, as a professional and someone who
claims he is a “master debater” one would think this man would figure it out at
some point how to act like a professional or at least learn to be respectful
but this does not happen at all and I again note countless times in this 2<sup>nd</sup>
Affirmative where Preston gives fallacy after fallacy, misrepresentations and
adds nothing of substance in this debate. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">In his final and 3<sup>rd</sup> affirmative, it just
continues to get more pathetic and futile to hope that Mr. Preston could ever
hope or believe him to be professional since he starts to openly concoct
disturbing lies about me going so far as to also claim that I ignore his second
affirmative and then continues on the same path employing fallacy after fallacy
with multiple ad hominem statements calling me unscholarly, arrogant, and declaring I break the rules of the debate
when, unfortunately, as the reader can easily tell, Preston is the one who has
in fact broken the rules at almost every turn from the start, even at the
Q&A section. Projection is a bit of an understatement with Preston. At one
point, he even tries to pull a gish gallop fallacy and it was safe to say that
Brandolini’s Law applied here. He continued to mention conversations on
Facebook and give even more ad hominem arguments. I could go on with this but you
get the gist. At the end of the day, Mr. Preston completely failed to establish
any credibility for his position and lost his own personal credibility by
engaging in meaningless rhetoric and constant ad hominem, and ungodly and
unscholarly behavior that is beneath all people.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Next up, for my part of the debate where I give my
affirmations, my objective was to affirm that <b>while not definitive, the book of Revelation was likely written in the
reign of Domitian (90s CE) after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE and explain
why.</b> Knowing that this was the agreed-upon objective, Preston decides in
his first negative to berate me for giving no definitive statement or setting
something as an established fact. Obvious to any reader who has read what my
objective is to be in this debate and read my first affirmative, they will find
that, yes, obviously none of what I offer here makes it 100%, without a doubt,
definitive or conclusive that the Revelation was written in the reign of
Domitian. One cannot make that claim definitively for either the early or the
late date as we do not possess any manuscript or anything definitive from the
archeology and history books. In other words, we cannot claim something is an
established fact when we do not possess definitive evidence to prove the claim
to be an established fact. Preston cannot prove an early date and has not done
so in his three affirmatives and while I can give pieces of evidence that point
to the potential for Revelation to be more likely written in a later date, I
cannot and will not make some definitive statement when it cannot be
established as a fact since that would be intellectually dishonest, be
pseudo-scholarship, be pseudo-academia, and only one with a lack of integrity
would claim such a thing in that matter. Nowhere in the first negative of
Preston did he give any argument addressing the arguments I give. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Responding
to Preston’s Second Negative<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">In the second affirmative, Preston attempts to claim I
have not done any exegesis of a single bible text. Why would this matter? The
debate as I have noted repeatedly is not over Preston’s interpretation or my
interpretation of “the Bible” nor the Revelation itself being valid, Holy
Spirit inspired, accurate or not. It is over WHEN THE REVELATION WAS WRITTEN.
Nothing more and nothing less. He brings up Facebook posts again proving
complete desperation on his part and an inability to stick with the debate at
hand. It also shows an entire and complete lack of professionalism that has
been evident throughout this entire debate. Preston denies it but at the end of
the day, the reader can see it for themselves in the writing. Don Preston at
the end of the day knows he has completely violated the very rules of the
debate that HE DEMANDED be in this debate. It is irrelevant what is posted on
Facebook to this debate but he continues to do so. I cite where he breaks many rules
aplenty but Preston lies to the reader claiming I don’t. I suppose he presumes they
are not going to read the propositions of the debate and will just take his
word for everything. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston writes that he argued Revelation is a “Jewish
book, about the imminent fulfillment of God’s Old Covenant promises made to Old
Covenant Israel”. He then makes some statement that Revelation 6 is “no pagan
altar”… The reader can easily note I made no such statement that this was a
pagan altar. He claims I ignore his citation of scholarship but the reader can
easily see I did no such thing. Lying about the other debater is intellectually
dishonest. Preston should gain some integrity as this debate ends for his own
sake. I did not ridicule Preston as he claims. I did note that he does not cite
any scholarship. When he does cite scholarship I also note that Preston gives
us nothing from these scholars to prove his claims about the dating of
Revelation and since Preston is supposed to prove DEFINITIVELY that the
Revelation was written before 70 CE, he has obviously failed to do so. I have
nothing to say other than Preston is just genuinely dishonest claiming I ignore
his claims and citations. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston commits an ad hominem and a no true Scotsman
fallacy by claiming “His (I, Sergius Bale) rejection of this foundational
Biblical truth reveals how totally out of touch with the Biblical narrative he
truly is”… because I do claim that the Revelation is not Jewish writing. It is,
in fact, the work of St. John who is a follower of Christ, and therefore John
the writer of Revelation is a Christian. Does Don want to reject one of the few
things about Revelation that is an established fact? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston then claims wildly that “All the first
Christians were Jews”… completely dismissing the fact that these seven cities
in Asia Minor would have Jew but be mostly Gentile cities. He also has a
problem here declaring the Revelation is about the promises of the Old Covenant
coming to fulfillment. Most biblical scholars apart from dispensationalists
would claim otherwise and in fact state that the Old Covenant was fulfilled
through the death and resurrection of Christ but I digress. None of this
establishes anything about the date of Revelation. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston tries and fails to set up a false dichotomy
about Isaiah 65-66 and 2 Peter 3… claiming I am “defeated” somehow by the
Q&A? This is all illogical and fabrication but at the end of the day, even
if Preston could find my interpretation of Scriptures and my personal beliefs
and tear them all apart, he would still have given absolutely nothing to
support his claim that Revelation was written before 70 CE as he can give
nothing definitive as he claims. Isaiah 65-66 and 2 Peter 3 I would also note
do not give us any indication of the dating of Revelation inside of them. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston gives some interpretation of Isaiah 63 and
65-66 and none of this gives us the date of Revelation. Preston makes some
interpretations about Acts 24, 26; Isaiah 25-27, 65-66; Daniel 12; Ezekiel 37,
the entire book of Zechariah… and nowhere, not a single place, does any of the
texts he gives to us prove a definitive date of Revelation. Instead of being a
grown-up and a professional and trying to act scholarly, Don instead continues
on with ad hominem fallacies claiming that I accuse John of teaching a
different gospel, then claims that I teach another Gospel… and then claims I make
a mockery of language by not agreeing with Preston’s interpretations of
scripture… This is again unprofessional and Preston just continues to dig
himself a hole where he cannot seem to quit with unprofessional behavior. It is
also laughable that someone who declares himself a master debater would stoop
to this level of discourse in what was supposed to be a written formal debate.
What should have been two professionals having intellectual discourse has
instead become one side, Preston’s making absurd claims, lies about his
opponent, misrepresentations about his opponent, and just overall a man who has
lost the debate by engaging in nothing more than what can be described as
absolute intellectual dishonesty and a lack of integrity with his character. Christians
should not engage in the type of disgusting and despicable behavior that Don
Preston has engaged in here and on a personal note: I encourage the reader to
not follow in this man’s footsteps with the way he has given discourse and
debate here.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston then continues in what apparently will just be
an entire “negative” where he gives nothing but ad hominem claims such as that
I am ignorant or arrogant for saying that Revelation 6 does not cite Isaiah
2-4. In fact, Revelation 6 does not cite Isaiah 2-4 at all. Don does in fact
lie to the reader by claiming that it does cite Isaiah 2-4. Preston brings out
some commentary by David Aune who says that Revelation 6 alludes to Isaiah 2…
Aune in fact does not say Revelation 6 cites Isaiah 2-4. Aune says he sees an
allusion there and makes an assertion that there is an allusion there. Nowhere
does Aune claim Revelation quotes nor cites directly Isaiah 2… So despite
Preston’s attempts to disprove his lie here, he has come up short as usual and
the charge and accusation I made stands that Preston did in fact lie and try to
intentionally mislead his audience.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston lies again to the reader claiming that 2
Thess. 1 quotes – verbatim – from Isaiah 2:19… The fact is that this does not
happen in 2 Thessalonians 1 at all. Don is factually in error. Preston then decides
to slander me yet again with an ad hominem claiming that “According to Bale,
John was ignoring Jesus and Paul’s citation and application of Isaiah”… Nowhere
did I make any claim like this first. Secondly, Paul does not cite Isaiah 2 in
2 Thess. 1… I can only conclude Preston is being intellectually dishonest here
and trying to mislead his audience or that he is utterly confused or has
resorted in complete and total desperation to just saying whatever he wants and
hoping no one fact checks him. I believe it is the latter unfortunately as he
has shown no ability whatsoever to conduct himself properly in this debate
since the very start as I have noted so why would Preston bother at the end to
conduct himself properly? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston goes on a whole rant about Domitian and
persecution. Fact is, I just have to provide sources that show there was potentially
persecution, which I do. Nothing has to be definitive here. Preston knows this.
Preston then tries to undermine Eusebius, Hegesippus, and Irenaeus who all
agree that Domitian did persecute the Church at one point and exile John to
Patmos. I don’t think much more needs to be said. It does not have to be
widespread persecution. The fact is that there is not a single source that gives
us an early date for the Revelation while it is unanimous from Church history
that there is a later date seen in mind by virtually all writers and historians
even until the 6<sup>th</sup> and 7<sup>th</sup> Centuries respectively where
we find a few sources that point to considering Nero in mind like the “616”
manuscript we have discussed in my first affirmative for example. Though we
must, due to intellectual honesty and integrity to academia and scholarship,
say none of this is definitive for the latter date being the date it was
written, we still have plenty of evidence to support this to be the case as I
have shown while Don has nothing definitive and only has what amounts to a
“because I said so” argument and a flurry of ad hominem statements that wreck
any credibility he might have had in this debate. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">I will also note this. Preston claims Jesus was not
crucified by or in Rome but in fact, Jerusalem and the Judean province were
part of Rome so yes, Jesus was technically very much crucified in Rome and a
Roman city and a Roman province, but I digress. Nothing here anyway determines
the date of Revelation as Preston continues to blabber on and on with his
pointless interpretation of Scripture that does not give us any definitive date
at all. It is not definitive just because Don Preston wants it to be so and
because he makes up some interpretation that he wants all people to believe to
be without error. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston tries to berate me for giving a 10<sup>th</sup>
Century source about St. Antipas he claims is highly questionable but yet, I
have given an actual source for my affirmation while Preston, who claimed he
would give something definitive throughout this entire debate could not do so.
Preston claims that there is “Catholic tradition that says Antipas was slain by
Nero” and then gives a video of himself which can only be described as a
non-answer and an incoherent rambling for 16 minutes where he proves nothing
and wastes everyone’s time here. He does not give a single mention of this
supposed “Catholic tradition” in this video that is supposed to share the
source. He then gives a claim about Cornelius A Lapide being the only
commentary according to DeMar, Gumerlock, and Schaff to talk about the Forum of
the Ox. Concerning these three, the Forum of the Ox was used as punishment for
a long time. The statue we know was brought to Constantinople from Pergamum in
Asia Minor and according to the Patrologia Latina, it was used to persecute
Christians by Julian the Apostate (361-363 CE) and notably, Emperor Heraclius
(610-641) had it melted and used it before that to have Emperor Phocas’ head
and body burned down in 610 CE, which they note in Byzantine history books that
this is believed to be the same bull that St. Antipas was martyred in. While we
cannot definitively prove that this bull is or was the same bull (and it very
well may not be so) there is something to be said there that this is talked
about in historical data. We don’t have omniscience so DeMar, Gumerlock, and
Schaff may not know of this source which is fine. Either way, this is not
definitive but as far as I can tell these people are mistaken on some level
about the origin of the martyrdom story evidence but even if this could be
argued against or shown to be falsified, it still does not matter since there
are proofs given whereas in this debate Preston has given absolutely nothing to
make his claims 100% conclusive. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston claims that Robinson proves that there was a
distinction made between the Jews and Christians and claims this was an
established certainty. Whether that is the case or not, none of this makes it
definitive about the date of Revelation. Robinson tries to make a case for the
dating but he even admits that he has nothing that gives 100% definitive and
conclusive evidence to make it an established fact. Preston tries and fails to
make some “refutation” about Jude’s grandchildren and falls flat. Domitian
could have been prone to exile people and not have them killed. A Roman Emperor
could do whatever he wanted for any reason. He could have had Jude’s
grandchildren killed but as the historians state, Domitian chose not to do so,
and instead the biggest thing the historians' state is that he exiled John to
Patmos, a clear statement made by Eusebius and Hegesippus and backed by
Irenaeus. This could very well be accurate. When Domitian exiled John to
Patmos, John wrote the Revelation and when Nerva became emperor, John would
have been released, and then as the historians state, he could have very well
died in the reign of Trajan as is stated. Polycrates certainly believes he died
in the reign of Trajan and this is confirmed by other patristics. Preston just
presumes in a typical asinine fashion that his interpretation of Revelation has
to be the correct one and everyone else’s interpretation is damned and false
and stupid. John nor any historian nor patristic ever once claim the Revelation
was fulfilled in 70 CE. We can conclude as well easily that the Church does not
believe the Revelation is fulfilled. What the historians show us is that the
Revelation was seen to be written in Domitian’s reign according to the
historians and their sources. We have our sourcing from St. Hegesippus writing
from 110-180 CE that John died in the reign of Trajan and wrote the Revelation
after 70 CE. Compare this to Mr. Preston who has nothing but his interpretation
of scripture that is attested to be false (him being a full preterist) by
literally everyone in scholarship and academia and in the realm of atheism,
agnosticism, history, along with biblical scholarship in Protestant, Catholic,
and Orthodox circles all being in agreement when full preterism is brought up
as a topic that it has no legitimacy at all.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston asks why I spend time talking about the
martyrdom of Symeon, son of Clopas. Did Preston just not read the 2<sup>nd</sup>
Affirmative? I make quite clear why I mention this. In Chapter 32-33, Eusebius
continues confirming historical facts about the period that the descendants of
Jude, John, and Symeon lived under during the reign of Domitian, which
continued to happen even to the reign of Trajan and onward. Preston, therefore,
lies when he claims this information is unimportant. This information
collaborates the data I give in the second affirmative before that. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston tries to use some scholar named Moss and
claims because she doesn’t mention Domitian that I must therefore be false. If
we can trust Preston read Moss correctly, then apparently he believes as she
apparently does that Eusebius fabricated everything he said for political
purposes. This must also apparently mean that Hegesippus fabricated everything
too as did Irenaeus and Polycrates who confirms John died in the reign of
Trajan and knew Polycarp and Irenaeus, two people who knew John for some time.
Apparently, the only one anyone can trust is Preston and his infallible
interpretation of scripture (Note to the reader: this is sarcasm as Don is
definitively not infallible, not even close). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston claims I ignore Apollonius of Tyana saying
Nero was called a tyrant… I did not mention him but that does not mean I
ignored him. Him not calling Domitian a tyrant doesn’t mean anything except
that this one person didn’t call Domitian a tyrant. There are plenty of sources
in history that call Domitian a tyrant as well just as there are claims that
Nero is a tyrant. If this is supposed to be an attempt at a “got you” moment,
Preston has absolutely failed to do so. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston berates me over my usage of Clement of
Alexandria and tries to use the Stromata to claim that inspiration ended in the
days of Nero. The patristics do not teach cessation. Preston is a cessationist
but his belief is not adhered to by the patristics nor any in the Early Church.
His belief system is innovation and nothing more than an ahistorical belief
just like his full preterism, put up by Restoration types in the Church of
Christ denomination that think everyone was wrong until he, Preston showed up
to grace us with his presence. There is no reason to take his claims here
seriously since Clement does not believe in the cessation of God inspiring
people. This is nothing more than Preston misinterpreting the texts of the
patristic writers to try to back his fallacious claims. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston lies and claims I believe Peter did not write
1 Peter. I will say there are good arguments to be made that it is a posthumous
work done at the hand of someone like St. Stephanus perhaps who would have been
an amanuensis for Peter but an amanuensis is still writing for the writer and
will write as the writer would have wished. Preston’s lack of integrity is
noted for lying about me here but this has been how this entire debate has
pretty well gone. Preston then lies again and claims that I say Revelation may
have been fabricated. I do not actually make this claim and it just shows his
continuous lack of integrity and character on Preston’s part to be
unprofessional in this manner and lie in the middle of a formal written debate.
I have nothing more to give here. Preston claims I will give nothing but
insults and silence but in fact, he has done nothing but make insults about me
and not answer in the proper scholarly matter. His lies are quite disgusting
and his lack of integrity is quite insulting. This is not Christian behavior. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Tacitus does not refute me as Preston claims. Nero
does exile some people and I never claimed otherwise. I do claim that Nero
preferred to execute more than he exiled but Preston maliciously lies here
again by misrepresenting my position showing his disgusting behavior and
disregard for honesty and integrity. This is again non-Christian behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">I give The Acts of John as evidence and Preston tries
to disregard it by claiming it is a heretical work according to the Council of
Nicaea (a Council he cares nothing about and doesn’t agree with, to begin
with). It does not matter if this work is considered heresy. It is a 2<sup>nd</sup>
Century work and I am not arguing over inspiration. I just note that it
references John’s exile by Domitian and I list it because it is history. It
doesn’t matter if Don thinks the text is goofy for having John pray for bedbugs
to leave or thinks it is strange. His personal opinion is irrelevant. Most
people think that Don Preston’s belief that Jesus came back in 70 CE is
ridiculous and all of Christendom declares full preterism a heresy since we’ve
decided to disregard historical documents just because someone like Preston
thinks something it says is goofy. Preston’s argument here is entirely irrelevant.
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston’s claims about Irenaeus are disputed in
Orthodox circles. John Behr does not claim anything Preston claims in any
definitive way. Behr makes arguments in a scholarly fashion, unlike Don
Preston. Mr. Preston should not concoct lies about people. Dean Furlong well
can claim whatever he likes but he does not have anyway - as no one does - to
prove definitively that the Revelation was written in the reign of Nero or
Domitian. No one does and anyone who claims they do is not being truthful. I
would not trust Dean Furlong’s “scholarship” if he claims it is an established
fact that Revelation was written before 70 CE as it is not. It is, as of now,
an established fact that we do not have the exact date of Revelation when it
was written. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">He claims that we should find “direct, definitive
testimony” to Domitian worship… I have given sources for the imperial worship
already. Domitian had a neokorate dedicated to the worship of himself along
with his brother Titus and father Vespasian. I have given more than enough
proof for this. We have the historical evidence for this and Preston’s claim
that there is no biblical record of such persecution is not factual. If
Revelation was written after 70 CE then it is in fact a “biblical record”. We
can’t be definitive about that but if it is, then it is in fact one. We have
historians all in agreement about this as I have noted. To suggest there is no
evidence at all like Preston does is simply intellectually dishonest.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Preston lies yet again claiming I want to convince the
reader that he is a false teacher for taking the early dating of Revelation. I
have claimed no such thing in this debate. This is not Christian behavior to
make up lies about me and Preston quite simply needs to quit being a liar. If
he wants to be a Christian since he is not being one by being a bold-faced liar
and slandering me with false claims he can do so and be one by repenting of his
slander and lies. Preston shows no integrity whatsoever here.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">I will say this clearly to the reader: I do not
believe early date advocates are liars or false teachers. Early date believers
are not heretics. Early date believers can be and are Christians just as much
as of late date believers are. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Since Preston has decided to be personal though, I do
in fact believe he is a false teacher and a heretic but it is not for believing
in the early date of Revelation. I think he is a false teacher and a heretic
and not a Christian because of multiple reasons. He denies Christ is fully God
and fully human. He believes Christ’s incarnation burned up in the Ascension.
He endorses teachers like William Bell, who teaches young men to be open
polygamist marriages. Preston denies and intentionally misinterprets the
resurrection of the dead. Most importantly, Preston exhibits ungodly behavior
which is evidenced all throughout this debate since he is clearly and openly
willing to lie about others and misrepresent others. No Christian should have
to lie and show the complete lack of character and the lack of integrity like
Mr. Preston has shown here throughout this entire debate. With that, I have
given more than enough evidence throughout my negatives and affirmatives while
Don Preston has done nothing to prove his affirmative. Throughout this debate
Preston was to prove definitively that Revelation was written before 70 CE and
there was not a single point through this debate where he managed to do so,
failing on every level to do so. My affirmative and objective were to show that
while not definitive, there is plenty of evidence to support a late date for
Revelation being the case. I have obviously done so. Preston has not. Thus,
Preston loses the debate and only continues to fall even further with his sad
and pathetic exhibition of ungodly and antichrist behavior throughout this
debate showing he has no problem with lying and misrepresenting others, shows
he has a complete lack of respect, decorum, and a complete lack of integrity
and has unfortunately shown he cannot be a professional nor a scholar in any
sense of the word for this debate at all.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">Conclusion:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p>
</p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; line-height: 107%;">To conclude this, Don Preston is no expert debater. It
is clear from this debate that he has obviously lost the ability to tell the
truth and instead can only persist in lie after lie. It is clear he has not
proven his affirmative as he was assigned to do in this debate. He has not
proven definitively that Revelation was written in 70 CE and has thus lost the
debate as, ultimately, whether you agree or disagree with the late date of
Revelation, I did prove my point by sticking to my objective in the debate and
proving my objective, whereas Preston failed to do so. Additionally, it is abundantly
clear that since he could not do so and prove his position he resorted to
fallacy upon fallacy throughout this entire debate and will likely do so in his
final negative as well. He could do nothing more than constant ad hominem
statements. It is clear he could not be professional, lacks intellectual
honesty, lacks proper Christian decorum, and shows a complete and utter lack of
integrity when it comes to debate. I cannot stress enough the lack of integrity
he has shown here for it is utterly detestable behavior. This man is no scholar
ladies and gentlemen. This man can not claim the title of Christian as
Christians do not have to resort to constantly lying about their opposition
which Preston does here. I would ask the reader to pray for his repentance and
hope that Mr. Preston gets a grip on reality and truth and stops resorting to
his most ungodly and antichristian behavior. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p>---</p><p><b><u>Don Preston's Final Negative:</u></b></p><p><span>Before I present my final
negative, here is what you need to know. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Sergius Bale is NOT the real name
of my opponent. It was revealed on FB on 12-7-2021, that his true identity is
Lance Conley. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>What that means is that Bale /
Conley, lied about his true identity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>He lied about being born in
Greece and that Greek is his first language.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>He lied, repeatedly, constantly
claiming to have a Phd.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>He lied, repeatedly, when he
claimed to be a university professor in Australia.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>In sum, he lied about everything
concerning himself.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Some months ago, a private
messenger suggested to me that Bale was actually Conley. So, I asked Bale
pointedly if his true name was Sergius Bale, was true. He affirmed that it was.
Now, the truth comes out that he lied from the very beginning.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Conley is known to be a mentally
disturbed young man, with anger issues and clearly, whose poisonous tongue
manifests itself in vicious attacks against anyone that differs with him. That
is exhibited in his final Affirmative.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>What is truly amazing and sad is
that when he was exposed on the FB page, Full Preterism: A Thing of the Past,
(where he admitted to lying about his true identity), he said his constant
lying did not hurt anyone, therefore, he did nothing wrong. He exhibited no
remorse, no repentance, and no apology for his long time lying. In fact, since
exposed, he has actually bragged about the entire situation, even saying he has
been doing this kind of thing for years. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>To compound the tragedy, it was
revealed that many of the anti-preterists on that forum knew, for a long while,
of his lies, and NOT ONE OF THEM spoke out against his lying. Some actually
said they knew of it for a while and thought it was “funny”, “harmless” and no
big deal. How is lying ever funny or harmless? Shocking, shameful and
disgraceful!! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Think about that! People who call
themselves Christians refusing to condemn blatant, willful, habitual lying!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Proverbs says there are seven
things that are an abomination to God; one of those is “a lying tongue”. But
the anti-prets on that page think it is no big deal and even funny. In fact, I
was told that I have no right to express moral outrage, because “we are all
sinners” and “let the one without sin cast the first stone.” According to such
ludicrous logic, no Christian can speak out against any sin, because, after
all, “we are all sinners”. So, the main anti-prets on that page including
William Vincent the owner of the page- refused to condemn what they knew to be
purposeful lies. BUT THEY CONDEMNED ME FOR SPEAKING OUT AGAINST IT! That speaks
volumes about the lack of moral character of the owner of that site who allowed
it to carry on, and the anti-preterists that have refused to condemn the lies
of Conley.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>With these facts before us, let
me summarize what we have seen in this debate. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>In my affirmatives: I
demonstrated the direct connection between Deuteronomy 32, Isaiah 2-4, Matthew
23, Luke 23:28-31, 2 Thessalonians 1, and Revelation. Each of these texts speak
of the vindication of the martyrs- in Israel=s last days. Revelation 19 even
echoes Deuteronomy 32:43.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>I challenged Bale (Conley) to
show that these texts are not related, since, if they are related, Revelation,
being the anticipation of the fulfillment of the earlier texts, was the
prediction of the imminent destruction of Jerusalem for her guilt of killing
the OT prophets, of Jesus, and Jesus = apostles and prophets. Totally ignored
except to say that my interpretation means nothing. That is not refutation. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>For Bale to falsify any of this
he must demonstrate definitively- that Israel and her blood guilt is NOT the
focus in this unbroken chain of evidence. He admitted repeatedly that he cannot
do this! All he has done is ridicule all scriptural arguments! Think about
that. Rome is not in Deuteronomy 32, Isaiah 2-4, and Matthew 23:29f, Luke
23:28-31, Thessalonians, or Revelation. Deuteronomy 32 predicted the
vindication of the martyrs in the judgment of Israel in her last days.
Revelation is about the vindication of the martyrs in the last days, in the
judgment of Babylon, the city where the Lord was crucified. Bale=s response was
to say that since none of the texts specifically mention the dating of
Revelation or Babylon that they cannot be speaking of Revelation or Babylon.
This exposes his hermeneutical fallacy, since to demand that any given text use
certain explicit language is specious. I challenged Conley to cite any accepted
book on hermeneutic that says a text must explicitly say something for a given
truth to be accepted. He did not even try. He knows he can=t and that his
hermeneutic is false. I proved that Revelation says that Babylon, had killed
the OT prophets. It is where the Lord was crucified. It is the city guilty of
shedding the blood of Jesus= apostles and prophets. ONLY JERUSALEM had ever
done or could ever done this.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Bale argued that if he could find
that a prophet had been killed in any other city this negated the argument.
Clearly false. I asked him repeatedly who Jesus accused of these crimes. He
refused to answer. I proved that both Jesus and Paul identified Jerusalem as
the city guilty of killing the OT prophets, Jesus and the apostles and
prophets. Revelation likewise identifies Babylon as the city guilty of those
crimes, proving that Babylon could be no other than Jerusalem. Babylon in
Revelation was spiritually called Sodom. The only city in the Bible ever
spiritually called Sodom was Old Covenant Jerusalem. Therefore, Babylon in
Revelation was Old Covenant Jerusalem. Totally ignored.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>I offered this: All the blood
of all the righteous, including the prophets, of Jesus and Jesus' apostles and
prophets, would be avenged in the destruction of Jerusalem-- Jesus. All the
blood of all the righteous, including the prophets, Jesus and Jesus= apostles
and prophets, would be avenged in the destruction of Babylon-- Revelation.
Therefore, Babylon was Jerusalem. Since Revelation was written before the
destruction of Babylon, that means Revelation was written before the
destruction of Jerusalem. The arguments were ignored. REVELATION- A BOOK OF
JEWISH CHRISTIAN HOPE? In my 1st negative I argued that the book of Revelation
is a preeminently Jewish book, about the imminent fulfillment of God=s OC
promises made to OC Israel. I cited scholarship in support;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Bale ignored that
testimony. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>This is supported by the fact
that in Revelation 6, the blood of the martyrs is at the base of the altar.
This is Jewish Temple imagery, (not pagan) strongly suggesting Jewish
culpability for shedding the blood of the martyrs. Bale tried to escape from
this by saying “I never said this was a pagan altar!” Well, if Revelation is
not about Israel, or the Jewish temple, but about Rome, then what altar is
depicted here? It can=t- per Bale be the Jerusalem temple altar! By eliminating
THAT altar, he has in fact logically insinuated that the altar of Revelation
symbolized a pagan altar! He entrapped himself- as usual. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Bale ignored my citation of
scholarship. Early on, Bale ridiculed me for not citing “Scholars”. But when I
do, he ignored the citations or rejected them. I guess only the scholars that
he cites are truly scholars. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Bale responded: “Don claims
Revelation is a Jewish book” this is a Christian writing. In his final, he
doubles down on this, insisting that since John was a Christian that he could
not have been writing about the imminent fulfillment of the OT promises made to
Israel! This is the very epitome of bad logic. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Conley is totally out of touch
with the Biblical narrative! How does the fact that Revelation is a Christian
writing negate the fact that it is focused on the fulfillment of God’s OC
promises made to Old Covenant Israel? All the first Christians were Jews,
convinced the Jesus was the fulfillment of their OC kingdom hope. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Peter’s eschatology, (Acts
3:19-24 / 2 Peter 3:1-2, 13), Paul's eschatology (Acts 24:14f; 26:6f,
21f), and John’s eschatology was nothing but their expectation of the imminent
fulfillment of God’s Old Covenant promises made to OC Israel. Their statements
cannot be construed otherwise, without perverting them. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Scholarship is virtually united
in positing Isaiah 65-66 as the source of both 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 21.
Conley admitted THAT IT IS! He defeated his own claim that Revelation is not
about the fulfillment of God=s OC promises made to OC Israel! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>I documented that virtually all
scholars agree that John was anticipating the resurrection and the New Creation
foretold in Isaiah 25-27, 65-66, Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37, the book of
Zechariah, etc.. These were THE OLD TESTAMENT PROMISES MADE TO OLD COVENANT
ISRAEL! How did Bale respond? Ignored the entire argument. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Here is why this is so important
and relevant: The New Creation- and the resurrection prophesied by Isaiah
65-66- Ezekiel 37, Daniel 12, etc.)- is the same New Creation / resurrection
anticipated by Revelation 20-22 (Conley agrees). But the New Creation of Isaiah
65-66 / resurrection would arrive when God destroyed OC Israel (Isaiah 65:13-17
/ Daniel 12:7). Therefore, the New Creation of Isaiah 65-66 would arrive when
God destroyed OC Israel. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>This is confirmed by the fact
that the New Creation of Revelation would 6 come when the city “where the Lord
was crucified” was destroyed. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Paul said that if ANYONE taught a
different Gospel from that which he taught, he was anathema. Thus, if John’s
eschatology was different from Paul’s, (undeniably from the Tanakh), then Bale
is accusing John of teaching a different gospel. And he is himself teaching
another Gospel. Conley engaged in a personal attack on me, but did not address
the argument. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Of course, Conley does not
believe that Revelation is about the imminent fulfillment of ANYTHING because
he claims it is about the destruction of Rome FOUR CENTURIES REMOVED FROM JOHN’S
“DO NOT SEAL THE VISION OF THIS BOOK, FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND”. Sorry, “Behold,
I come quickly”; “do not seal the vision of the book, for the time is at hand,”
does not equate to 400 years! Totally ignored.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>I argued from Matthew 23:29f: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Fact: Jesus: Jerusalem killed the
prophets.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Fact: She would also kill him
(Matthew 21:33f).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Fact: She would kill Jesus=
apostles and prophets. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Fact: She was guilty of all the
blood shed on the earth. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Fact: She would fill the measure
of her father=s blood guilt, and be destroyed in the first century generation. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>These are not disputable facts,
unless you want to pervert the text. BALE NEVER ANSWERED THIS. HE CAN’T. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>ONLY JERUSALEM DID OR COULD DO
WHAT REVELATION SAYS “BABYLON” HAD DONE! ROME DIDN’T AND COULDN’T. Bale never
answered this.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Revelation says that Babylon is “where
the Lord was crucified”. Bale tells us that in actuality, ROME IS WHERE THE
LORD WAS CRUCIFIED! Amazing. No, Mr. Bale, Rome was not the city “Where the
Lord was crucified”, or the city spiritually called Sodom. In the Bible,
Jerusalem is the only city ever spiritually designated as Sodom. Bale was
so desperate to avoid these historical and scriptural facts, that he
spiritualized “where the Lord was crucified” WHICH IS THE INTERPRETATION OF THE
SPIRITUAL DESIGNATION OF SODOM AND EGYPT. Being the interpretation, it is not a
spiritual designation. Bale turns the interpretation of Sodom and Egypt into
another symbol. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Fact: In Revelation 6:9f, the
martyrs were told to rest for a little while for their vindication. Bale would
have that to be hundreds of years! Totally ignored. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Fact: Revelation 6:12f - Their
vindication would come at the Day of the Lord, when men would run to the
mountains, hide in the caves and cry “fall on us” A DIRECT QUOTE OF ISAIAH
2:19F! Significantly, Bale “responded” to this by claiming (again) that I
overtly lied when I said that Revelation 6 is quoting Isaiah 2:19. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Well, Isaiah 2:19 (parallel Hosea
10:8)- men would run to the hills, hide in the caves and say to the rocks “fall
on us” Revelation 6:16: “every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the
rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us!” Yet
we supposed to believe that Revelation is not quoting from Isaiah! Bale’s
ridicule proves nothing. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>FACT- Isaiah 2-4 is irrefutably a
prophecy of the last days Day of the Lord when the martyrs would be vindicated
by the destruction of Jerusalem.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>FACT: Jesus undeniably applied
Isaiah 2:19f to the coming judgment on Jerusalem for killing him- Luke 23:28-31.
Virtually all scholars agree that Jesus was citing Isaiah (parallel of Hosea
10:8) - applying it to AD 70. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>FACT: Paul applied the same
verses from Isaiah that Jesus applied to AD 70, to the coming judgment of the
Jews for persecuting the saints. Again, Bale claimed that I lied when I said
Paul was citing / quoting Isaiah. He is ignorant of scholarship. John A. T.
Robinson, Jesus and His Coming, (Philadelphia, Westminster Press, 1979), 107,
n. 1 says that 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is “almost an exact quotation of Isaiah
2:19f.” Charles Wanamaker likewise says that v. 9 “reproduces the text of
Isaiah 2:9f / 19f” (New International Greek Text Commentary, (Grand Rapids;
Eerdmans, Paternoster, 1990), 229). More citations could be given. Bale is
denying the undeniable. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>FACT- John- like Jesus and Paul-
cited Isaiah to speak of the coming soon, (not centuries away) judgment on “Babylon”
for killing the prophets, Jesus, and Jesus= apostles and prophets. Jesus had
earlier explicitly laid the blame for killing the prophets, himself, and his
apostles and prophets at the feet of Jerusalem (Matthew 23 / Luke 11:49). Not
Rome - no other city - Jerusalem. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Conley says all of this is my own
personal, subjective interpretation, and therefore, irrelevant. He says I lie
when I say that John quoted from Isaiah. No, scholars agree that Jesus quoted
from Isaiah, Paul quoted the same verses. John quoted the identical verse. Bale
made no effort to prove the argument wrong. He simply ridiculed. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>In my final affirmative I offered
two arguments from Daniel 9: Seventy weeks were determined to seal vision and
prophecy. Seventy weeks were determined to seal vision and prophecy. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>I cited a host of scholars from
across the theological spectrum in support. All he did was scoff at that
scholarship. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>I offered this: Seventy Weeks
were determined on Jerusalem to fulfill ALL vision and prophecy. (Daniel 9 is
not about a singular specific prophecy, but vision and prophecy comprehensively
considered, as scholarship confirms). The Seventy Weeks would end no later than
the destruction of Jerusalem. (In AD 70- per Jesus). All things written would
be fulfilled at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem (Luke 21:22) the city
where the Lord was crucified i.e. Babylon (Revelation 10:7 / 11:8f). Therefore,
Babylon of Revelation, the city where the Lord was crucified, was Jerusalem. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Conley deflected the power of
this by telling us how controversial Daniel 9 is, therefore my argument cannot
be accepted. So, per Bale, if something is highly controversial, it cannot be
true! Well... The very existence of Jesus is “highly controversial”. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>The Deity of Christ is “hotly
debated”.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>The inspiration of scripture is
hotly debated.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>The resurrection of Jesus is one
of the most controversial claims in history! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>The fact that something is hotly
debated, highly controversial, does not mean that a person cannot know it is
true. If so, we can just cast the Bible and Christianity aside. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Matthew 21:33f<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>The parable of the Vineyard and
Wicked Husbandmen is an echo of Daniel 9 – “to finish the transgression”. Israel
was the Vineyard of the Lord (Isaiah 5). This is not a subjective
interpretation. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>We have the time of the harvest
of the vineyard. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>We have the persecution of the
saints and the Son- filling up the measure of sin. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>We have the destruction of the
persecutors AT THE COMING OF THE LORD. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Like Daniel all of it relates to
Israel as the persecutor and the prediction (s) of the coming destruction of Jerusalem.
Nothing about Domitian or Rome here! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>I asked Conley, does Matthew
21:33f predict the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem for persecuting the saints?
No answer. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Notice now Revelation 14: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>V. 6-8 - The announcement of the
Judgment of Babylon (the city where the Lord was crucified) had come; her
judgment was at hand. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>This is the Father, who knew the
Day and the Hour of the end, declaring that the hour had come. The destruction
of Rome 450 years later violates the language of “at hand” and, “has come”. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>V. 18f- Another angel came out
from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried..., saying, “Thrust in
your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her
grapes are fully ripe”. This is the same altar where the martyrs were- once again
pointing us to a “Jewish” context. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Unless Bale can prove-
definitively - that John is using the imagery of the Vine / vineyard in a way
divorced from its OT source, this effectively proves that Revelation 14 is
parallel with Matthew 21 in predicting the coming, imminent destruction of
Jerusalem. That proves that Revelation was written before AD 70. Totally
ignored. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>The NT is clear that the time of
the harvest had come. It was announced by John the Baptizer (Matthew 3:7-12),
and by Jesus (John 4:35). It was to occur at the end of the age, in fulfillment
of Daniel 12:3-7, which is explicitly posited for the time when the power of
the holy people would be completely shattered (Daniel 12:3B>Matthew 13:43).
Paul said that the end of the ages had come (1 Corinthians 10:11). Conley
totally ignored this. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>I asked Conley / Bale: Is the
vineyard in Matthew 21 different from Revelation 14? Ignored. Is the time of
the harvest in Matthew 21 different from the harvest in Revelation 14? Ignored.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Is the coming of the Lord to
destroy the persecutors in Matthew 21 a different coming of the Lord to judge
the persecutors from that in Revelation 14? Ignored. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Matthew 22 and the Wedding<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Matthew 22 - A king made a
Wedding Feast for his Son. I asked - to whom was the promise of the Wedding
given? The Tanakh is definitive: It was Israel, Hosea 2:19f I will betroth you
to me again... Isaiah 62: You shall no longer be forsaken.... you shall be
called Beulah (married). IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Note: The wedding of Isaiah 62
would be at the coming of the Lord in judgment (v. 10-12). This is quoted
directly by Jesus in Matthew 16:27, and emphatically said to take place in the
first century generation - v. 28. In Revelation 22:12, Jesus reiterated Matthew
16:27, (and Isaiah 62) saying, Behold I come quickly. Thus, the Wedding of
Revelation was to occur in the lifetime of the first century generation.
Matthew 22- and Revelation - is about God fulfilling His promise to Are-marry”
Israel. It has nothing to do with Rome, WHO WAS NEVER MARRIED (AND NEVER
DIVORCED) TO YHVH. IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>The servants sent to invite the
guests were persecuted and slain. This is the message found in Matthew 23:34B “I
send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and
crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from
city to city”. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>v. 7: “But when the king heard
about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers,
and burned up their city.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>In Revelation, the Harlot,
persecuting city, is burned with fire (Revelation 17:10f). At the destruction
of the persecuting city, the Wedding took place (19:6-8). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>I asked: In Matthew 21 what city
persecuted the saints, and as a result, the “King” sent out His armies and
burned that city? If this was not Jerusalem, what city was it? IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>I asked: Is the persecuting city
of Matthew 22 the persecuting city of Revelation? IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>In Revelation we find that- just
as in Matthew 22 - the Wedding takes place at the destruction of a city, i.e.
Babylon. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>19:5f - I heard a loud voice ...
in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! ....because He has judged the great harlot who
corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood
of His servants shed by her”. And I heard ... a great multitude... saying... Let
us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has
come, and His wife has made herself ready.” <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>This Babylon was the city that
killed the prophets (16:6). She is where the Lord was crucified (11:8). She
killed the apostles and prophets of Jesus (18:20-24). Her destruction is the
fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32:43 the prophecy of Israel=s last days. It is not
about Rome. - as proven in my 2nd Affirmative. IGNORED BY BALE. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Babylon was THE GREAT HARLOT. In
the Tanakh- the source of Revelation- the word “harlot” is used to speak of A
WIFE THAT HAS VIOLATED THE MARRIAGE COVENANT: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>“In the OT, almost all of the
occurrences of the prostitution metaphor (86 / 91) apply to the people of the
Covenant (Israel, Judah or Jerusalem).” (Sebastian R Smolarz, Covenant and the
Metaphor of Divine Marriage in Biblical Thought, (Eugene, Ore., Wipf and
Stock,2011), 8f). IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Jesus called Jerusalem an “adulterous
generation” three times (Matthew 12:39; 16:4; Mark 8:38). What other city than
Jerusalem was an adulterous wife, Mr. Bale? IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>YHVH was NEVER MARRIED TO ROME.
Rome could not be an adulterous, (harlot) wife. Only Old Covenant Jerusalem was
EVER married to the Lord, divorced and given the promise of being re-married.
IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Mr. Bale, if Babylon is Rome,
when was YHVH EVER married to her? Did the Lord marry a pagan city and call her
“the new Jerusalem”? IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Mr. Bale, is the Wedding of
Matthew 22 different from the Wedding in Revelation? IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Is the persecuting city in
Matthew 22 different from the persecuting city the city that killed the
prophets, Jesus and Jesus’ apostles and prophets- in Revelation? If so, PROVE
IT! IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>The persecuting city of Matthew
22, (that was to be destroyed for persecuting the servants of the Lord), was
first century, Old Covenant Jerusalem. The persecuting city of Revelation,
Babylon, was about to be destroyed for persecuting the OT prophets, Jesus, and
Jesus’ apostles and prophets. Therefore, Babylon of Revelation was first
century, Old Covenant Jerusalem unless Bale can definitively prove otherwise.
(He has admitted that he cannot prove this wrong!) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>All we got from Bale is more
vitriol, more claims that the arguments are irrelevant. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>He offered us speculations from
archaeology - none of which proved anything. In fact, I shared this: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Ken Laffer says: “Early attempts
to use archeology to prove that certain Christian individuals were involved in
the alleged persecution have, in recent times, found to be faulty and in need
of correction. Improved assessments of dating techniques have effectively
placed the key individuals outside the persecution time frame that could have
involved Domitian. .... It is extremely likely that Domitian was not as bad as
he has been portrayed and that he did not persecute Roman Christians at any
time during his troubled rule.” (The Alleged Persecution of Roman Christians by
Domitian, Ken Laffer, Doctoral Thesis, Edith Cowan University, 2005; Retrieved
from https://ro.ecu.edu.au/theses/639). IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>He tried to argue that John was
banished, and that Nero was not known for banishing people, but killing them,
in contrast to Domitian who preferred banishment. I demonstrated that this is
not true, as we have record of Nero banishing many people. Thus, his supposed
argument failed. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>He argued that Domitian may have
been referred to as “the beast that rises from the sea” inferring a connection
with Revelation 13. But of course, he did not PROVE such as connection, and as
I noted, earlier testimony (Apollonius- 1st century) called Nero the worst of
all beasts! But Bale prefers late testimony to that of John’s contemporaries! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>He called attention to Domitian’s
megalomania. In my response, I noted that he did not document with even one
citation, ANY PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS FOR NOT WORSHIPING HIM! He noted that
Domitian persecuted Jews but did not- COULD NOT - document that he persecuted
the church! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Bale tried to counter this by
claiming that in the time of Domitian, “Jew and Christians were mostly seen as
two rivaling sects of Judaism versus each other rather than two distinct sects”.
False. A. T. Robinson said that by the time of Domitian, the distinction
between Jews and Christians was an established “certainty” and became so, “in
the summer of 64. .... both Nero and Rome now clearly distinguished between the
religio licita and the new sect”. (Redating, 294). Conley says even if this is
true it does not prove anything. Wrong. It proves that since Domitilla and
Clemens were killed for converting to Judaism, they were not persecuted as Christians.
Conley is ignoring the evidence. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>In regard to Domitian’s
megalomania, Bale says: “We must note that the poet Statius in Silvae 1.6:83-84
does claim that Domitian rejected the titles. However, the majority consensus
of historians at the time seems to suggest that Domitian did claim deity while
living”. Bale ignores key facts. He just tells us that a poet claims that
Domitian rejected the exalted titles. That is not the whole story.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Robert Briggs points out that it
was DOMITIAN=S OWN PERSONAL HISTORIANS, Statius [the poet, DKP] and
Quintillian, who record how he would not allow men to deify him (Robert Briggs,
Jewish Temple Imagery in the Book of Revelation, Studies in Biblical
Literature, (New York, Peter Lang, 1999), 33, n. 93). Thus, it was not just “a
poet” in view. IT WAS DOMITIAN’S OWN 13 PERSONAL HISTORIANS WHO SAID HE
REJECTED THE TITLES OF DEIFICATION. Bale purposefully ignored these
inconvenient facts. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Conley admitted that the supposed
Domitianic persecution of the church began in the last year of Domitian’s
reign. This means, by his own admission, that Domitian’s persecution LASTED ONE
YEAR- AT MOST! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>That contradicts the long history
of persecution found in Revelation. Babylon (Rome per Bale) had a long bloody
history of killing the OT prophets (FACT: ROME NEVER DID THIS! Period). Rome is
not where the Lord was crucified. Even granting for argument sake that Domitian
may have persecuted some isolated individual Christians, he still only did so
for ONE YEAR AT THE MOST! Totally ignored. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Robinson says of the proposed
Domitianic persecution, that Conley admits was local and brief: “When this
limited and selective purge, in which no Christian was for certain put to
death, is compared with the massacre of Christians under Nero in what two early
and independent witnesses speak of as ‘immense multitudes’ it is astonishing
that commentators should have been led by Irenaeus, who himself does not even
mention a persecution, to prefer a Domitian context for the book of Revelation”
(Redating, 233). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Conley said none of this proves
anything but of course, it does. It proves that the widespread, long term
severe persecution of Revelation cannot be the short term, limited and
localized A Domitian persecution that Bale posits. His own words refute him! We
are to also ignore what Jesus and Paul said about Israel filling the measure of
her sin, in the first century, for the killing of the OT prophets, of Jesus,
and Jesus= apostles and prophets. And we are to believe that Domitian’s ONE
YEAR AT MOST had filled the measure of Rome’s guilt. Bale ignored this
completely. Revelation says the Beast “Domitian”, per Sergius, was to persecute
for 3 2 years- Revelation 13. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>So, according to Revelation, the
Beast, ostensibly Domitian, was to persecute the church for 3 1/2 years. Yet,
per Bale, Domitian did not begin persecuting the church until THE LAST YEAR OF
HIS REIGN! TOTALLY IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Bale offered us four count them
FOUR- supposed cases of Domitianic persecution of the church. Not one of his
cases can be proven to be: 1. Persecution by Domitian, 2. Persecution of
Christians! And the fact that he gave us “The Acts of John” a fictive,
phantasmagoric work in support of his claims proves that he knows he has no
solid definitive proof for his proposition. Amazingly, he comes back defending
his use of this fictive book even though scholars and even the creeds reject
it. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>ANTIPAS - There is no solid
evidence that Antipas was killed by Domitian. The supposed “evidence” was
written centuries after the fact and is “hotly debated” and rejected as
spurious. He tried to escape from this by simply criticizing the scholars I
cited. That is not an answer. His appeal to the case of Domitilla and Clemens
are examples, not of Christian persecution but Jewish. When I shattered this
argument he said that it does not matter because all he had to do was to show
that there was potentially a persecution! Nonsense. Revelation is not about a potential
persecution, but a major, widespread, on-going persecution. Yet, Conley
admitted that if Domitian persecuted at all, it was localized, and short-lived.
This contradicts Revelation. He gave not one keystroke of proof that Domitian
did what Revelation describes. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Again, his own admissions refute
him. His appeal to the descendants of Jude is specious: THEY WERE NOT EXILED OR
KILLED. They were not punished in any way. They were interrogated, and
released! That is NOT PERSECUTION! But, per Bale, they were Christian martyrs!
Conley says this proves nothing because Domitian “could have” exiled them and not
had them killed. No, that violates the record. They were not persecuted AT ALL-
PERIOD! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Incredibly he gave us the example
of Symeon of Clophas! Reader, that case took place NOT UNDER DOMITIAN, BUT
UNDER TRAJAN! Why would Bale appeal to this case of persecution to prove a
Domitian persecution of the church, when it took place well after the time of
Domitian?? He tries to deflect from his error by claiming that Symeon’s
persecution was just a continuation of Domitian=s persecution. That is his
personal, subjective (UNPROVEN) interpretation, and does not negate my point
that his death was not under Domitian. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Conley claims that he did not
have to even prove that Domitian actually persecuted the church but rather that
that “there was potentially persecution”. Total nonsense. REVELATION TALKS
ABOUT ACTUAL PERSECUTION. We KNOW Nero did that; we do NOT know that Domitian
did. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>I cited Candida Moss, early
church historian, WHO OMITS ANY MENTION OF PERSECUTION UNDER DOMITIAN. She also
claims that the descriptions of persecution by Eusebius were in many cases
fabrications for political purposes. All Bale could do is to impugn her scholarship
of which he knows nothing. She is professor Of New Testament and Early
Christianity at Notre Dame, and is a graduate of Oxford and Yale. Her specialty
is early church history and Christian persecution. But I guess Conley knows
more than she does. The Roman Emperors Revelation speaks of the emperors of
Rome, and says: “There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the
other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time”. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>According to the ancient sources
closest to the first century Roman situation, (with the exception of Tacitus)
they all say - definitively - that Julius was the first emperor. This included
Josephus, Suetonius, Dio Cassius, The Sibylline Oracles (5:12) and 2 Esdras
12:15. They all list Julius as the first emperor. (See Robinson, Redating, 243f
/ also http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Lists%20of%20Roman%20Emperors.htm
). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Gentry adds the Epistle of
Barnabas (late first century, maybe even pre-AD 70), and the testimony of the
second century writer praised by Eusebius, Theophilus of Antioch, who said that
the list of Roman emperors began with Julius. (Gentry, Beast, 107). The list of
emperors therefore is: #1 - Julius, #2 - Augustus, #3 - Tiberius, #4 -
Caligula, #5 –Claudius, #6 - NERO- THE ONE AWHO IS, WHEN JOHN WROTE.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>This one argument DEFINITIVELY
falsifies Bale’s entire debate attempt! There is no good reason whatsoever to
reject this countdown, and Bale knows it. That is why he totally ignored it-
not a word of response! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>THE IRANAEAN CITATION<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Conley confidently set forth the
quote from Irenaeus claiming that only Calvinist preterists have fairly
recently questioned the quote. (He now changes his claim that it is all church
of Christ folks! Confusion reigns!) This is a pejorative and false claim. Of
course the key is that one of the top Irenaeus scholars in the world said: “things
are not necessarily as they seem at first sight” referring to the view espoused
by Bale. Behr says, “It is almost certain that the subject of the passive verb ‘was
seen’ is John himself rather than the apocalyptic vision”. (John Behr, The
Theologian and His Paschal Gospel, Oxford University Press, 2019). 68). Bale
tries to escape the force of this with more insults claiming that Behr, “does
not claim anything Preston claims”. False. Behr denies the very thing that
Conley affirms: that the Irenaeus quote supports Conley’s position. Conley then
insults Dean Furlong which stems from his personal encounters with Furlong on
FB - in which Furlong totally devastated Bale’s arguments. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>THE DATE OF 1 PETER AND
REVELATION<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Conley tried to escape the
evidence from Revelation and 1 Peter by claiming that 16 it is possible that
both books are false productions, written by false authors years after the time
of the apostles. (He admits the possibility of amenuensis / secretaries, doing
the actual writing. BUT THAT DEMANDS THAT BOTH PETER AND JOHN DID THE DICTATINGB
DEMANDING A PRE-AD70 AUTHORSHIP OF PETER FOR SURE! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>I cited scholarship that dates 1
Peter to AD 64-65. Bale once again said that I am wrong because this is hotly
debated. He just scoffed at it. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>1 Peter SAYS it was written by
Peter. PETER DIED BEFORE AD 70. Conley denies that Peter wrote the epistle, an
overt denial of what the book says. This denial is essential for his position.
I challenged Conley to tell us if he believed that THE APOSTLE PETER WROTE OR
DICTATED 1 PETER? YES OR NO? In his final he said it is likely that Peter=s
amenuensis penned it. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>THAT STILL DEMANDS THAT PETER
DICTATED THE EPISTLE BEFORE HIS DEATH! AND THAT DEFINITIVELY DATES 1 PETER
BEFORE AD 70. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Ponder the fact that HIS ENTIRE
POSITION HINGES ON PROVING THAT 1 PETER IS A FALSE PRODUCTION BY A PRETENDER!
But at the very least, it was written by Stephanus, Peter=s secretary- which,
again demands that Peter dictated the epistle before AD 70B falsifying Bale’s
claims. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Bale wrote 250 words telling us
that Revelation may have also been an ex eventu fabrication not written by
John. Now, he tells us that Peter probably did not write 1 Peter! Conley seems
to have no problem believing that Peter (and Revelation) are fabrications-
FALSE books! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Conley MUST deny any relationship
between 1 Peter and Revelation. Let me repeat my argumentB which he tried to
dismiss by his appeal to the fictive nature of 1 Peter: 1 Peter was written to
the saints in Asia (1 Peter 1:1f); as was Revelation. The saints were being
persecuted (1 Peter 1:5f; 4:11-12), as in Revelation. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Their persecution, was Afilling
up the measure of suffering / sin (1 Peter 5:10- epiteleo). This is directly
parallel to Revelation 6:9-11 / 17:6f. It is likewise in perfect harmony with
Jesus and Paul who said (Matthew 23 B>1 Thessalonians 2:15-16) that it was
Israel that would fill up of the measure of sin through persecution in the
first century. Bale says these connections can be dismissed because they don=t
mention the dating of Revelation. That is total smoke- and false. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>If the filling up of the measure
of sin - by Israel- in Matthew 23 and 1 17 Thessalonians 2 is the same as in
Revelation, (and it is since Babylon was the city guilty of killing the Lord) -
then since both Matthew 23 and Thessalonians are dealing with first century,
Old Covenant Israel prior to AD 70B not Rome- that proves that Revelation was
written prior to AD 70. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Peter promised the saints they
would only have to endure persecution for a short time (1 Peter 1:5f 4:5, 7,
17), just as the Spirit told the Revelation martyrs that their vindication
would be Ain a little while@ (Revelation 6:9f). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>In Revelation 3:10 Jesus promised
the Philadelphia saints: AI also will keep you from the hour of trial which
shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.@ The
persecution was literally Aabout to come@ (mellousesB from mello in the
infinitive). The Blass-DeBrunner Greek Grammar says: Amellein with the
infinitive expresses imminence@ (Blass-DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New
Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago, University of Chicago
Press, 1961), 181). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>So, we have an already present
Asian persecution, but we have a Afiery trial@ of persecution that was AABOUT
TO COME.@ Then, in an epistle written in AD 65B well before Domitian- we find
Peter saying: Athink it not strange concerning the fiery trial THAT IS AMONG
YOU.@ The Greek of the text is AThe fiery trial that is (present tense) among
you (en humin).@ It is not a future tense. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>John, writing to the Asian saints
said a time of trial (persecution) was about to come. Peter, writing to the
Asian saints, said the fiery trial WAS AMONG THEM. They were not to think that
trial strange. WHY? The logical answer is that John in Revelation had told them
it was about to come, AND NOW IT WAS AMONG THEM! Revelation was clearly written
before Peter. Bale must prove that Revelation and 1 Peter are speaking of two
totally different Asian persecutions, both of which were present but about to
imminently get worse, and, both of which were to consummately fill the measure
of sin and suffering! And relief from both persecutions would be at the coming
soon parousia of ChristB Behold, I come quickly. He totally ignored this-
naturally. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>If Peter wrote 1 Peter, (he did)
then since he was writing to the same people as John, about the same issue,
persecution of the saints, and made the same promises as John (imminent relief
at the parousia), then since John FORETOLD what Peter said was then present,
this demands that Revelation- was written before AD 70. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Unbelievably, Conley says all of
this is irrelevant to our discussion! Wrong. It is critical. No less than three
times, Conley claims that my use of his comments on FB were irrelevant and a
violation of the rules of the debate. He did not document that, because he can’t.
The rules 18 say NOTHING ABOUT USE OF COMMENTS MADE OUTSIDE THE DEBATE. That is
a blatant falsehood. Anyone that knows anything about debating which he clearly
does not, knows that anything a disputant has said or written outside the
debate can and will be used against them! He never documented a single
violation of the rules by me. Just empty false claims. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>Finally, look again at my
argument (among many) that Bale totally ignored for good reason. Revelation is
about the imminent- to John- judgment of Babylon. Babylon is where the Lord was
crucified- (Revelation 11:8). Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem NOT ROME.
Therefore, Babylon of Revelation was Jerusalem. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>This debate is now over. I
strongly believe that any honest, objective reader knows that Bale / Conley has
utterly failed in his attempt to prove a late date for the writing of
Revelation. Just think about it: Conley told us repeatedly that he did not have
any definitive or conclusive evidence and yet, he claims that he has proven
that the late date is probable. How in the name of reason and logic can you
prove ANYTHING by not offering conclusive, definitive evidence? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span>The debate has exposed Bale /
Conley as a willful liar and his supporters as those who willfully condoned his
sin. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p>
</p><p><span>If you want to look deeper into
the massive, powerful evidence for the early dating of Revelation, see my
groundbreaking book: Who Is This Babylon?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p>---</p><p><b><u>Response to Don's Negative To Conclude (Note to Reader I Will Cuss Some In This Response So Forgive Me Here)</u></b></p><p></p><p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Before I present my final negative, here is what you need to know.
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Sergius Bale is NOT the real name of my opponent. It was revealed
on FB on 12-7-2021, that his true identity is Lance Conley. What that means is
that Bale / Conley, lied about his true identity. He lied about being born in
Greece and that Greek is his first language. He lied, repeatedly, constantly
claiming to have a Phd. He lied, repeatedly, when he claimed to be a university
professor in Australia. In sum, he lied about everything concerning himself. Some
months ago, a private messenger suggested to me that Bale was actually Conley.
So, I asked Bale pointedly if his true name was Sergius Bale, was true. He
affirmed that it was. Now, the truth comes out that he lied from the very
beginning.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">So he starts off the final
negative by trying to poison the well here. Me being who I say I am is
irrelevant to the debate. Fact is Don got trounced in this debate and needs
anything he can find and use to try to save face. I wasn’t born in Greece and
Greek isn’t my first language but I am becoming quite fluent in basic Greek. I
am not a PHD but Don doesn’t have a doctorate either since his honorary degree
comes from a paper mill Vision. I am obviously not a professor at a university.
Working on that one. I made a burner account and embellished who I was with
this account. I was perfectly respectful the entire time with it and it was
abundantly clear to almost everyone apparently except Don Preston and some
other full preterists that this was a burner account but he never bothered to
do any actual fact checking or to do a few simple google searches to verify who
I really was so that’s not my fault he’s too stupid to figure out who he’s
debating. Truth is, Don just saw someone claiming to be a PHD and BEGGED to
debate me. I declined twice and he BEGGED William to suspend the rules of his
group so he could debate me. He can never escape that he did this and made
himself look like a complete and asinine fool. He can never escape that he
debated Lance Conley and got his butt owned in a debate he agreed and wrote the
rules to.. which I should add, there is no rule in this debate that the person
he debated has to state his true credentials. There is nothing in this debate
that says that I have to debate from my real account. There is nothing that
states in this debate that I have to be truthful about who I really am in this
debate. The debate should therefore just be about our arguments but that being
the case, Don Preston chose to claim that he would provide DEFINITIVE evidence
that Revelation was written in 70 AD and he did not manage to do it at all,
despite many pages of his writing about his interpretation of what he thinks
the bible means. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Conley is known to be a mentally disturbed young man, with anger
issues and clearly, whose poisonous tongue manifests itself in vicious attacks
against anyone that differs with him. That is exhibited in his final
Affirmative.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Ad hominem. Don also lies as my
final affirmative was not filled with any of this stuff he claims. The reader
can read my final affirmative and clearly see I was not being angry and I was
not cussing or using a poisonous tongue or giving out vicious attacks against
Preston. In fact, one will find the opposite going on. The only one acting
mentally disturbed is in fact, Don K Preston here for getting exposed as the
charlatan he is (this is an intentional ad hominem since Don is so in love with
doing them I figure I will do one too). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">What is truly amazing and sad is that when he was exposed on the
FB page, Full Preterism: A Thing of the Past, (where he admitted to lying about
his true identity), he said his constant lying did not hurt anyone, therefore,
he did nothing wrong. He exhibited no remorse, no repentance, and no apology
for his long time lying. In fact, since exposed, he has actually bragged about
the entire situation, even saying he has been doing this kind of thing for
years. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">This is irrelevant and a lie. I
admitted who I was, apologized to many people via private and public message.
My lie did not do damage to anyone except perhaps Don Preston’s underwear since
I’m sure he pooped himself finding out who he was really debating. No one
actually cares that I made a burner account on this group and those that claim
they do are virtue signaling to try and help Don Preston save face since they
recognize how much he got trampled on in this debate by me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">To compound the tragedy, it was revealed that many of the
anti-preterists on that forum knew, for a long while, of his lies, and NOT ONE
OF THEM spoke out against his lying. Some actually said they knew of it for a
while and thought it was “funny”, “harmless” and no big deal. How is lying ever
funny or harmless? Shocking, shameful and disgraceful!! Think about that!
People who call themselves Christians refusing to condemn blatant, willful,
habitual lying!<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">This is a farce. I hid my
identity from many people and they had no responsibility and have none to tell
Don Preston he was debating a burner account. As I said before, it was obvious
to anyone who did even the smallest bit of investigation and research into who
I was really. Don did not do any of this. I too think it is hilarious
considering Don yaps every day about how much of a scholar and researcher he
is. He says it is not funny and says lying is shocking, shameful and
disgraceful and says Christians who refuse to condemn blatant, willful and
habitual lying is bad.. well then I suppose we should all condemn Don K
Preston, and we do, for being a bold faced, disgusting, lying sack of dung
since he has been caught lying multiple times and setting up smear campaigns
against so many people that it is not possible to list them all. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Proverbs says there are seven things that are an abomination to
God; one of those is “a lying tongue”. But the anti-prets on that page think it
is no big deal and even funny. In fact, I was told that I have no right to
express moral outrage, because “we are all sinners” and “let the one without
sin cast the first stone.” According to such ludicrous logic, no Christian can
speak out against any sin, because, after all, “we are all sinners”. So, the
main anti-prets on that page including William Vincent the owner of the page-
refused to condemn what they knew to be purposeful lies. BUT THEY CONDEMNED ME
FOR SPEAKING OUT AGAINST IT! That speaks volumes about the lack of moral
character of the owner of that site who allowed it to carry on, and the
anti-preterists that have refused to condemn the lies of Conley.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don tries to virtue signal how
lying is bad. He should take his own advice and learn to stop lying himself
before he starts attacking me and others. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">In my affirmatives: I demonstrated the direct connection between
Deuteronomy 32, Isaiah 2-4, Matthew 23, Luke 23:28-31, 2 Thessalonians 1, and
Revelation. Each of these texts speak of the vindication of the martyrs- in
Israel=s last days. Revelation 19 even echoes Deuteronomy 32:43. I challenged
Bale (Conley) to show that these texts are not related, since, if they are
related, Revelation, being the anticipation of the fulfillment of the earlier
texts, was the prediction of the imminent destruction of Jerusalem for her
guilt of killing the OT prophets, of Jesus, and Jesus - apostles and prophets.
Totally ignored except to say that my interpretation means nothing. That is not
refutation. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don does not in fact demonstrate
anything. The debate is supposed to be on the dating of Revelation being before
or after 70 AD. None of these texts Don gives us give us the dating of
Revelation. Plain and simple. Don’s interpretation is worthless for this debate
premise and he refutes nothing by giving his “because I said so” argument. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">“For Bale to falsify any of this he must demonstrate definitively-
that Israel and her blood guilt is NOT the focus in this unbroken chain of
evidence. He admitted repeatedly that he cannot do this! All he has done is
ridicule all scriptural arguments!” </span></b><span style="color: black;">No. I in fact do not have to demonstrate any of this. The debate
is over the date of Revelation and so I do not have to do any of this. He also
lies and gives an ad hominem claiming I ridicule scriptural arguments. I don’t
ridicule the bible at all just because I don’t agree with Don’s interpretation.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Think about that. Rome is not in Deuteronomy 32, Isaiah 2-4, and
Matthew 23:29f, Luke 23:28-31, Thessalonians, or Revelation. Deuteronomy 32
predicted the vindication of the martyrs in the judgment of Israel in her last
days. Revelation is about the vindication of the martyrs in the last days, in
the judgment of Babylon, the city where the Lord was crucified. Bale=s response
was to say that since none of the texts specifically mention the dating of
Revelation or Babylon that they cannot be speaking of Revelation or Babylon.
This exposes his hermeneutical fallacy, since to demand that any given text use
certain explicit language is specious. I challenged Conley to cite any accepted
book on hermeneutic that says a text must explicitly say something for a given
truth to be accepted. He did not even try. He knows he can=t and that his
hermeneutic is false. I proved that Revelation says that Babylon, had killed
the OT prophets. It is where the Lord was crucified. It is the city guilty of
shedding the blood of Jesus= apostles and prophets. ONLY JERUSALEM had ever
done or could ever done this.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">I never claimed Rome is in any of
these texts. Israel did not exist as a nation in 70 AD. It had not been around
for a long time. Judaea is not a nation in the days of Rome nor in 70 AD. It is
nothing more than a province and an epicenter for Judaism and its adherents as
far as that is concerned. The Jews also survived after 70 AD so though Judaism
did change, it did not die and neither did its ethnic people. Josephus’
existence is proof that Jews did not die out. Bar Kochba Revolt and Simon Bar
Kochba is proof that Jews did not die out or cease to exist. Christians I will
also note continued to be persecuted after 70 AD. They were not vindicated by a
temple falling down and Rome and some Jews having a civil war for a few years.
Don yaps about a hermeneutic and his interpretation here and that’s it. He
provides no definitive evidence for the Revelation being written before 70 AD.
That is what he’s supposed to do and he doesn’t do it. Giving his
interpretation does not give us definitive evidence. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Bale argued that if he could find that a prophet had been killed
in any other city this negated the argument. Clearly false. I asked him
repeatedly who Jesus accused of these crimes. He refused to answer. I proved
that both Jesus and Paul identified Jerusalem as the city guilty of killing the
OT prophets, Jesus and the apostles and prophets. Revelation likewise
identifies Babylon as the city guilty of those crimes, proving that Babylon
could be no other than Jerusalem. Babylon in Revelation was spiritually called
Sodom. The only city in the Bible ever spiritually called Sodom was Old
Covenant Jerusalem. Therefore, Babylon in Revelation was Old Covenant
Jerusalem. Totally ignored.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">There are prophets killed in
other cities and I prove that in my negatives. Lot of them do die in Jerusalem
or by Jewish people but this is not the case for all of them. Don has the New
Testament writers living in the end of the Old Covenant. In other words, they
are in Don’s theology, Old Covenant prophets… they do not all die before 70 AD
and they don’t all die by Jews. Babylon also in Revelation does not need to be
Rome though it could be. I don’t have to give anything definitive because that
is not in my objective. Don should learn how to debate better. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">I offered this: All the blood of all the righteous, including the
prophets, of Jesus and Jesus' apostles and prophets, would be avenged in the
destruction of Jerusalem-- Jesus. All the blood of all the righteous, including
the prophets, Jesus and Jesus= apostles and prophets, would be avenged in the
destruction of Babylon-- Revelation. Therefore, Babylon was Jerusalem. Since
Revelation was written before the destruction of Babylon, that means Revelation
was written before the destruction of Jerusalem. The arguments were ignored.
REVELATION- A BOOK OF JEWISH CHRISTIAN HOPE? In my 1st negative I argued that
the book of Revelation is a preeminently Jewish book, about the imminent
fulfillment of God=s OC promises made to OC Israel. I cited scholarship in
support; Bale ignored that testimony. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">I don’t ignore anything. Don is
just wrong. The Final Judgment did not happen in 70 AD. Don also lies when he
says that Revelation is a Jewish book. It is written by John who is a
Christian. It is a Christian document, not a Jewish book. Don also did not
actually cite any scholarship for support. None of the scholars he cites
believe the final judgment happened in 70 AD. He is simply lying about this and
should be ashamed of himself for putting up such bold face lies to his
audience. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">This is supported by the fact that in Revelation 6, the blood of
the martyrs is at the base of the altar. This is Jewish Temple imagery, (not
pagan) strongly suggesting Jewish culpability for shedding the blood of the
martyrs. Bale tried to escape from this by saying “I never said this was a
pagan altar!” Well, if Revelation is not about Israel, or the Jewish temple,
but about Rome, then what altar is depicted here? It can=t- per Bale be the
Jerusalem temple altar! By eliminating THAT altar, he has in fact logically
insinuated that the altar of Revelation symbolized a pagan altar! He entrapped
himself- as usual. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">I never once claimed that
Revelation 6 has Christ at a pagan altar. Don lies here like is usual for him
to do. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Bale ignored my citation of scholarship. Early on, Bale ridiculed
me for not citing “Scholars”. But when I do, he ignored the citations or
rejected them. I guess only the scholars that he cites are truly scholars. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don lies. I do not ignore his
citations. I actually did deal with them and discuss them. Don lies claiming I
ridiculed him for not citing scholars (he is referring to our questions and
answers section where I asked him if he could give me the references he was
referring to which he failed to do). I did not ridicule him when he gave
scholars either. I did respond about those scholars and why Don’s quoting them
doesn’t help his arguments but this is all simply a fabrication that Don pulled
out of his butt claiming I ridiculed him. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Bale responded: “Don claims Revelation is a Jewish book” this is a
Christian writing. In his final, he doubles down on this, insisting that since
John was a Christian that he could not have been writing about the imminent
fulfillment of the OT promises made to Israel! This is the very epitome of bad
logic. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don does claim Revelation is
written for Judaism when it is a Christian writing. I don’t double down on
anything. I just give a fact here that Don gives an ad hominem about claiming
it’s the very epitome of bad logic. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Conley is totally out of touch with the Biblical narrative!</span></b><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">No true scotsman fallacy. Ad
hominem. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">How does the fact that Revelation is a Christian writing negate
the fact that it is focused on the fulfillment of God’s OC promises made to Old
Covenant Israel? All the first Christians were Jews, convinced the Jesus was
the fulfillment of their OC kingdom hope. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don claims this is a fact. It is
not. He claims Revelation is focused on the fulfillment of God’s Old Covenant
promises made to Old Covenant Israel. This is his interpretation. He claims all
the first Christians were Jews. This is false. The majority of Christians first
were Jews but we do have record of Gentiles as well joining the Christian faith
in the New Testament. The earliest records and documents of church patristics
all agree with Paul in Ephesians that Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant at the
Cross through His death and resurrection and has ushered in the end of that
covenant and ushered in a new and better one in his time before 70 AD. Don’s
interpretation is not only irrelevant it is also false. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Peter’s eschatology, (Acts 3:19-24 / 2 Peter 3:1-2, 13),
Paul's eschatology (Acts 24:14f; 26:6f, 21f), and John’s eschatology was
nothing but their expectation of the imminent fulfillment of God’s Old Covenant
promises made to OC Israel. Their statements cannot be construed otherwise,
without perverting them. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Peter teaches that the universe
will be changed. He’s not being metaphorical. He even references the flood
multiple times to prove that point. Peter, Paul, and John’s eschatology does
not even come close to agreeing with the likes of Don K Preston. They all agree
that the Old Covenant was fulfilled by Christ at the Cross through His death
when He said “it is finished” (his work was done) and now He had ushered in the
New Covenant, along with through his burial, resurrection, and the Ascension. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Scholarship is virtually united in positing Isaiah 65-66 as the
source of both 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 21. Conley admitted THAT IT IS! He
defeated his own claim that Revelation is not about the fulfillment of God=s OC
promises made to OC Israel! <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">In modern terms we call this
vague-posting. Don just claims something without any evidence whatsoever that
his claim is true. I would agree Isaiah 65-66 and Revelation 21 could be
connected but none of this makes full preterism nor Don Preston true. 2 Peter 3
has the universe being recreated and changed… Don has it being about a temple
falling down. Big difference there. Only preterist scholars would claim this
stuff. Many different scholars have a variety of opinions on these scriptures. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">I documented that virtually all scholars agree that John was
anticipating the resurrection and the New Creation foretold in Isaiah 25-27,
65-66, Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37, the book of Zechariah, etc.. These were THE OLD
TESTAMENT PROMISES MADE TO OLD COVENANT ISRAEL! How did Bale respond? Ignored
the entire argument. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">None of these verses tell us when
Revelation was written. I will also note that not every verse in the Old
Testament is about the Old Covenant either. Some are about the New Covenant and
what is promised when the Messiah ushers that covenant into existence. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Here is why this is so important and relevant: The New Creation-
and the resurrection prophesied by Isaiah 65-66- Ezekiel 37, Daniel 12, etc.)-
is the same New Creation / resurrection anticipated by Revelation 20-22 (Conley
agrees). But the New Creation of Isaiah 65-66 / resurrection would arrive when
God destroyed OC Israel (Isaiah 65:13-17 / Daniel 12:7). Therefore, the New
Creation of Isaiah 65-66 would arrive when God destroyed OC Israel. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">This is false. I do not believe that
Isaiah 65-66 is about the destruction of Old Covenant Israel. Therefore, Don’s
whole argument here is falsified by the fact that he misrepresents my actual
position on Isaiah and the Old Covenant. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">This is confirmed by the fact that the New Creation of Revelation
would come when the city “where the Lord was crucified” was destroyed. Paul
said that if ANYONE taught a different Gospel from that which he taught, he was
anathema. Thus, if John’s eschatology was different from Paul’s, (undeniably
from the Tanakh), then Bale is accusing John of teaching a different gospel.
And he is himself teaching another Gospel. Conley engaged in a personal attack
on me, but did not address the argument. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don just lies again claiming I
engage in a personal attack on him which I don’t. Every one of Don’s negatives
are filled with vile and disgusting ad hominems and lies so I do confront those
lies but none of them are some personal attack. I just note that Don lies and
makes disgusting ad hominems. I will note that Paul and John’s eschatology
involves actual bodies rising from the actual grave and being physically
resurrected to an immortal state by the Holy Spirit which means by Don’s own
logic he is and should be anathema. And Don is a heretic by all standards of
the Christian faith. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Of course, Conley does not believe that Revelation is about the
imminent fulfillment of ANYTHING because he claims it is about the destruction
of Rome FOUR CENTURIES REMOVED FROM JOHN’S “DO NOT SEAL THE VISION OF THIS
BOOK, FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND”. Sorry, “Behold, I come quickly”; “do not seal
the vision of the book, for the time is at hand,” does not equate to 400 years!
Totally ignored.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">I do not claim Revelation to be
about the destruction of Rome. Don misrepresents me yet again and lies. I do
believe Revelation as a prophecy begins the moment the prophetic word ends for
John but this does not mean it gets fulfilled right away or by 70 AD like Don
believes. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">I argued from Matthew 23:29f: <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Fact: Jesus: Jerusalem killed the prophets.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Fact: She would also kill him (Matthew 21:33f).<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Fact: She would kill Jesus= apostles and prophets. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Fact: She was guilty of all the blood shed on the earth. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Fact: She would fill the measure of her father=s blood guilt, and
be destroyed in the first century generation. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">These are not disputable facts, unless you want to pervert the
text. BALE NEVER ANSWERED THIS. HE CAN’T. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don claims these are not
disputable facts. This was answered as well in the debate. Jesus does say that
Jerusalem kills her prophets and says He would be killed and that His apostles
and prophets would be killed by not just Jews but the entire world. Jesus
doesn’t just say Jerusalem will bear the brunt of all sin that has ever existed
either like Don tries to claim. He says the entire world will stand before God
and stand as saint or the condemned. Don likes to claim things are facts when
they in fact aren’t. It is not a fact just because Don says it is. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">ONLY JERUSALEM DID OR COULD DO WHAT REVELATION SAYS “BABYLON” HAD
DONE! ROME DIDN’T AND COULDN’T. Bale never answered this.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">I do in fact answer Don’s
questions. He should quit with the lying. I will note that IF the Revelation is
still about the future which most believe it is despite Don’s lies where he
claims all of scholarship believes it isn’t (nonsensical), Jerusalem COULD be Babylon if this
is a future event (any honest scholar would leave this as a possibility). It is possible. Jerusalem still does exist. It is
not a perpetual city filled with smoke and fire and brimstone to never be
restored to what it used to be even today. As anyone knows, the true Babylonian
Empire ceased to exist and is still in ruins to this very day. It was in ruins
then in John’s time and this is what he has in mind here. Jerusalem of John’s
time even before 70 AD and after does not match this at all because Jerusalem,
while it lost its temple and did get sacked, was not completely destroyed and
by 80 AD the Great Sanhedrin was rebuilt in Jerusalem and they were in fact
rebuilding slowly but were rebuilding the city at that time. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don wants to yap next about
Babylon not being Rome but his babbling and attempts to try and make me look
stupid falls flat. I never claim Rome was where Christ was crucified either
though I do say that it is true that Jerusalem, a province of Judaea, is not
the nation of Israel. It is of the nation of Rome in Jesus’ day when He was
crucified. It is a Roman province occupied majority-wise by Jewish people. The
Jews did not have their own separate nation. The closest they ever get to this
is 132 AD with the Bar Kochba Revolt and even then they fell in a few years to
Rome. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don claims I say Rome was where
the Lord was crucified and this is just a bold faced lie. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don claims I ignore Revelation 6.
Another lie. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don claims that Revelation 6:12
quotes directly Isaiah 2:19. This is a lie. It does not. One can simply open
their bible up and figure that out. Revelation does not quote Hosea 10:8
either. Don blatantly pulls this lie directly out of his butt. I did not
ridicule Don either as he claims here. I just point out that he’s lying and is
wrong. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don claims that it is a fact that
Jesus quotes Isaiah 2:19 with Luke 23:28-31… Fact is Luke does not quote Isaiah
2 anywhere in this chapter. It doesn’t quote Hosea 10:8 either. One can make an
allusion perhaps but it nowhere does a direct quote. Likewise, what does any of
this have to do with the DATE OF REVELATION? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don claims <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">that it is a fact that Paul applied the same verses from Isaiah that
Jesus applied to AD 70, to the coming judgment of the Jews for persecuting the
saints. Again, Bale claimed that I lied when I said Paul was citing / quoting
Isaiah.</b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">He then says AT Robinson says
that 2 Thess. 1:9 is almost an exact quotation of Isaiah 2:19… Did you catch
that? AT Robinson says ALMOST. AT Robinson admits this is not a direct
quotation. Don on the other hand lies to his audience and misrepresents AT
Robinson claiming that Paul DIRECTLY QUOTES Isaiah 2:19 in 2 Thess. 1:9. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don wants to ad hominem me for
being as he calls it “ignorant of scholarship” when in fact he is the ignorant
one. I have also read John AT Robinson. He gives his scholarly opinion on the
date of Revelation and gives his arguments on why he believes it should be
dated early. He is not conclusive about this as all scholars know to be true.
Robinson believes it but this does not mean it is definitive. Don probably
knows this as well, one would hope, however perhaps he doesn’t since his
knowledge on scholarship seems to be really put in question since he can’t be
bothered to represent AT Robinson correctly here. He claims more citations
could be given here but gives none. Why didn’t he bother doing it then? If he
has a definitive fact to give us then he should give us instead of
vague-posting things and not backing them up. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don claims it is a fact that
John, Jesus, and Paul cite Isaiah… then gives no quotation… He then gives
something about Matthew 23 and Luke 11 which do not directly cite Isaiah.
Another lie given to his audience from Don K Preston. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Conley says all of this is my own personal, subjective
interpretation, and therefore, irrelevant. He says I lie when I say that John
quoted from Isaiah. No, scholars agree that Jesus quoted from Isaiah, Paul
quoted the same verses. John quoted the identical verse. Bale made no effort to
prove the argument wrong. He simply ridiculed. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">As I have shown above, and in the
debate, this IS all nothing more than Preston’s subjective interpretation. He
has given nothing definitive to give any conclusive evidence, which means he
has to produce something that gives NO DOUBT and CANNOT BE DEBATED. HE MUST
GIVE A FACT WITH EVIDENCE THAT LEAVES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO REFUTE WHAT SHOULD BE AN
ESTABLISHED FACT like humans must breathe air and drink water to survive. He
fails to do this. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">In my final affirmative I offered two arguments from Daniel 9:
Seventy weeks were determined to seal vision and prophecy. Seventy weeks were
determined to seal vision and prophecy. I cited a host of scholars from across
the theological spectrum in support. All he did was scoff at that scholarship. I
offered this: Seventy Weeks were determined on Jerusalem to fulfill ALL vision
and prophecy. (Daniel 9 is not about a singular specific prophecy, but vision
and prophecy comprehensively considered, as scholarship confirms). The Seventy
Weeks would end no later than the destruction of Jerusalem. (In AD 70- per
Jesus). All things written would be fulfilled at the time of the destruction of
Jerusalem (Luke 21:22) the city where the Lord was crucified i.e. Babylon
(Revelation 10:7 / 11:8f). Therefore, Babylon of Revelation, the city where the
Lord was crucified, was Jerusalem. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don offers his interpretation of
Daniel 9 and cited some scholars, none of which definitively declare that
Revelation is written before 70 AD. None of the quotes Don gives from said
scholars give us anything definitive either. Daniel 9 as a text itself does not
give us the date of Revelation. Luke 21 and Revelation 10 and 11 do not do so either.
Don is supposed to give us definitive evidence for the early date. He does not.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Conley deflected the power of this by telling us how controversial
Daniel 9 is, therefore my argument cannot be accepted. So, per Bale, if
something is highly controversial, it cannot be true! Well... The very
existence of Jesus is “highly controversial”. The Deity of Christ is “hotly
debated”.The inspiration of scripture is hotly debated. The resurrection of
Jesus is one of the most controversial claims in history! The fact that
something is hotly debated, highly controversial, does not mean that a person
cannot know it is true. If so, we can just cast the Bible and Christianity
aside.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">He claims I deflected here… I
deflect by Don trying to run from the fact here that Daniel 9 does not give us
a definitive date for the Revelation? Is he serious? I don’t claim Daniel 9 is
controversial. I say there are multiple opinions from scholars that are varied.
Don lies here again and misrepresents my position. Then he tries to use
irrelevant examples saying that the deity of Christ is debated as is
inspiration of scripture and the resurrection of Jesus. This is irrelevant blabbering.
No one is claiming we should cast the bible aside and Christianity though I
will note Don does cast Christianity aside by trying to get us to accept his
heresy that NO ONE in Christendom accepts except him and a SMALL and MINISCULE
amount of people. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">He yaps about Matthew 21. Nowhere
does this text or the chapter give us any information to show the date of
Revelation. He asked me if Matthew 21 is about 70 AD and this is irrelevant. If
the Revelation is written in the late date then it is even more of an irrelevant
question. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">He yaps about Revelation 14 next
and claims that the destruction of Rome 450 years later violates the language
of “at hand” and “has come”. That is debatable with time texts and apocalyptic
language but either way, none of it has any relevance to dating the Revelation
as Revelation 14 gives us nothing definitive about the date of Revelation. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Unless Bale can prove- definitively - that John is using the
imagery of the Vine / vineyard in a way divorced from its OT source, this
effectively proves that Revelation 14 is parallel with Matthew 21 in predicting
the coming, imminent destruction of Jerusalem. That proves that Revelation was
written before AD 70. Totally ignored. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">This is nothing but a false
dichotomy. Unless B can prove D is fact, then R is true. This starts from a
false premise. It also has zero relevance to the date of Revelation. It is
irrelevant. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">The NT is clear that the time of the harvest had come. It was
announced by John the Baptizer (Matthew 3:7-12), and by Jesus (John 4:35). It
was to occur at the end of the age, in fulfillment of Daniel 12:3-7, which is
explicitly posited for the time when the power of the holy people would be
completely shattered (Daniel 12:3B>Matthew 13:43). Paul said that the end of
the ages had come (1 Corinthians 10:11). Conley totally ignored this. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">I don’t ignore any of this stuff
Don says. It’s just irrelevant what he says since nothing he gives here gives
us anything about the date of Revelation. All it is mostly is his interpretation.
Matthew 3, John 4, Daniel 12, Matthew 13 and 1 Cor. 10 give us nothing about
the date of Revelation. To claim I ignore this is just a lie. The Old Covenant
ended at the Cross. Not AD 70. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">I asked Conley / Bale: Is the vineyard in Matthew 21 different
from Revelation 14? Ignored. Is the time of the harvest in Matthew 21 different
from the harvest in Revelation 14? Ignored. Is the coming of the Lord to
destroy the persecutors in Matthew 21 a different coming of the Lord to judge
the persecutors from that in Revelation 14? Ignored. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Matthew 21 and Revelation 14 do
not give us any information on the date of Revelation. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Matthew 22 has nothing about
quoting Isaiah 62 or Hosea 2:19. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don claims: <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">The wedding of Isaiah 62 would be at the coming of the Lord in judgment
(v. 10-12). This is quoted directly by Jesus in Matthew 16:27, and emphatically
said to take place in the first century generation - v. 28. In Revelation
22:12, Jesus reiterated Matthew 16:27, (and Isaiah 62) saying, Behold I come
quickly. Thus, the Wedding of Revelation was to occur in the lifetime of the
first century generation. Matthew 22- and Revelation - is about God fulfilling
His promise to Are-marry” Israel. It has nothing to do with Rome, WHO WAS NEVER
MARRIED (AND NEVER DIVORCED) TO YHVH. IGNORED. <o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Matthew 16 does not quote Isaiah
62. Matthew 22 does not quote Revelation. None of this quotes Revelation and
Don is just straight up lying to his audience claiming that this quotes that
and that quotes this when it clearly does not. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">He just keeps lying and saying I
ignore his arguments. Truth is, he asks gish gallop questions and tries to ask
500 questions to divert from the FACT that he has not given a single time where
he proves that Revelation is written before 70 AD. Don is supposed to give us
definitive evidence for the early date. He does not. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">He just continues for at least 1
or 2 pages to repeat himself.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Then he lies yet again and claims
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">All we got from Bale is more vitriol, more claims that the
arguments are irrelevant. He offered us speculations from archaeology - none of
which proved anything.</span></b><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Does this idiot ever once
remember that my objective in this debate is supposed to be that WHILE NOT
DEFINITIVE, THE LATE DATE HAS SUPPORT FOR IT? He keeps stating I should give
definitive facts when he knows damn well that is not my objective in this
debate. This is typical dishonesty coming from Don Preston. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">He claims I give nothing but vitriol
which is false. Don always has to lie and that just proves what a terrible
debater he truly is and morally bankrupt. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">He tried to argue that John was banished, and that Nero was not
known for banishing people, but killing them, in contrast to Domitian who
preferred banishment. I demonstrated that this is not true, as we have record
of Nero banishing many people. Thus, his supposed argument failed.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don misrepresents me. I do argue
that John was banished in the reign of Domitian and I do note that Nero was
more known for murdering his opposition versus banishing them. I never once
claimed that Nero never banished people. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">He argued that Domitian may have been referred to as “the beast
that rises from the sea” inferring a connection with Revelation 13. But of
course, he did not PROVE such as connection, and as I noted, earlier testimony
(Apollonius- 1st century) called Nero the worst of all beasts! But Bale prefers
late testimony to that of John’s contemporaries! <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Another lie. I do argue this and
make a connection with Revelation 13 but I only make an argument. Nothing can
be made conclusive here as an established fact. I did in fact give the
reference to Domitian being a beast of the sea but Don of course wants to lie
and concoct lies. He is pathetic. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">He called attention to Domitian’s megalomania. In my response, I
noted that he did not document with even one citation, ANY PERSECUTION OF
CHRISTIANS FOR NOT WORSHIPING HIM! He noted that Domitian persecuted Jews but
did not- COULD NOT - document that he persecuted the church! <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Another lie from Don. All Roman
citizens would have to pay tribute to the emperor and this would include
Christians who would not be exempt from Domitian who did in fact claim he was a
god and demanded to be called one and worshipped. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don tries to quote AT Robinson
again and it’s all nonsense as AT Robinson does not declare his writing as an
established fact. Domitilla and Clemens could have been Jews. This does not definitively
prove the date of Revelation is early or late date. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don tries to blast me for noting
the poet Statius in Silvae says that he rejected the titles of deity. He tries
and fails to claim that I don’t give all information. There are some poets that
show this like Statius but there are others that say otherwise. Take your pick
as to whether or not you believe this or not I suppose but it seems that Domitian
did declare himself to be god and demanded worship since it is verified by
Roman historians as well. Statius is not a historian. He is a poet. Don lies
and claims e is a historian… We also know after Domitian’s death they largely
spoke out against his insanity and mention him declaring he is a god but Don
wants to ignore that and make up lies. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Conley admitted that the supposed Domitianic persecution of the
church began in the last year of Domitian’s reign. This means, by his own
admission, that Domitian’s persecution LASTED ONE YEAR- AT MOST! That
contradicts the long history of persecution found in Revelation. Babylon (Rome
per Bale) had a long bloody history of killing the OT prophets (FACT: ROME
NEVER DID THIS! Period). Rome is not where the Lord was crucified. Even
granting for argument sake that Domitian may have persecuted some isolated
individual Christians, he still only did so for ONE YEAR AT THE MOST! Totally
ignored. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">I never once claim that the
persecution of Revelation is all about Domitian’s persecution. Don
misrepresents my position YET AGAIN and lies about me “admitting” to this. I
don’t admit to that and Don is a bold faced liar. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don claims my own words refute me
but so far Don has not seemed to be able to intelligently represent my position
correctly. You would think a person who claims to be such a brilliant and
profound scholar could correctly represent his opponent and not concoct lies
out of his butt the way Don does but we all can see quite clearly Don is no
scholar and pulls lies out of his butt. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">I never claim Domitian persecuted
the Church for 3 and ½ years. Don lies and misrepresents me again about my
position of Revelation. Shocker. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Bale offered us four count them FOUR- supposed cases of Domitianic
persecution of the church. Not one of his cases can be proven to be: 1.
Persecution by Domitian, 2. Persecution of Christians! And the fact that he
gave us “The Acts of John” a fictive, phantasmagoric work in support of his
claims proves that he knows he has no solid definitive proof for his
proposition. Amazingly, he comes back defending his use of this fictive book
even though scholars and even the creeds reject it. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">This is by far some of the
stupidest comments Don has ever made. First off, my objective of the debate is
that the proof is not definitive but there are good cases to be made for a late
date so I give them as I’m supposed to do. Secondly, I do document that there
was persecution by Domitian claimed by the Early Church. I also give Acts of
John as proof because even if it is a fictive book it is a 2<sup>nd</sup>
Century work that is written. The creeds and scholars do not reject it archaeologically.
It is a piece of history. I’m not arguing whether it’s inspired or not. I’m
just arguing that it exists and shares about John and the reign of Domitian. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don rants that <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">“There is no solid evidence that Antipas
was killed by Domitian. The supposed “evidence” was written centuries after the
fact and is “hotly debated” and rejected as spurious.</b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">None of these scholars he cites
have any definitive nor solid evidence of an early date nor do we have
definitive evidence for a late date. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don gives no credible argument
against my historical arguments.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He
ridicules me for giving us an example of Symeon of Clophas. I say quite clearly
why I gave that information. It goes with the same chapters that Eusebius
quotes Hegesippus and Irenaeus to share that the information he gives about
Domitian and James’ death and John’s exile is reliable. The fact that he gives
more information proves he is reliable and that Eusebius, Hegesippus and
Irenaeus can be trusted as sources. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don gets mad at me for not taking
Candida Moss seriously. He touts her credentials and I suppose Don agrees with
her then that we should just read every single thing which includes the bible
as a skeptic and dismiss it but then not doubt the imagination of present day secular
and atheist bible critic scholars… But hey who’s actually reading these works
am I right? Don clearly doesn’t and just quote mines these people to try and
fool people into his perverse agenda. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Conley confidently set forth the quote from Irenaeus claiming that
only Calvinist preterists have fairly recently questioned the quote. (He now
changes his claim that it is all church of Christ folks! Confusion reigns!)
This is a pejorative and false claim. </span></b><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">This idiot lies about me again
and misrepresents me. You can read my debate and see I don’t do what he claims.
Don is nothing but a liar. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">I’ve also spoken directly to Fr.
John Behr. Don’s quoting him is incredibly dishonest. Fr. John Behr is a
renowned scholar and does not see his opinion as an established fact about
Irenaeus. He just gives his opinion and makes his educated opinion. I disagree
with it but not everyone will.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Conley tried to escape the evidence from Revelation and 1 Peter by
claiming that it is possible that both books are false productions, written by
false authors years after the time of the apostles. (He admits the possibility
of amenuensis / secretaries, doing the actual writing. BUT THAT DEMANDS THAT
BOTH PETER AND JOHN DID THE DICTATING DEMANDING A PRE-AD70 AUTHORSHIP OF PETER
FOR SURE! <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don lies again here claiming I think
Revelation and 1 Peter are false productions. Since I am not under obligation
to be cordial anymore, I find Don to be a despicable piece of dung for lying
about me constantly like he does here. I do admit that it is possible that a
secretary wrote these books. That is plausible. It would not mean that they are
fake books and that would also not demand John wrote the Revelation before 70
AD. That is a false dichotomy Don gives. I am not gonna bother arguing about 1
Peter’s scholarship since Don can’t be bothered to be an honest person here.
All I’ll say in response is Don that you are a piece of absolute dung and screw you for lying like you do. I never once say any of what Don spends about 2
pages lying about. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">Anyone that knows anything about debating which he clearly does
not, knows that anything a disputant has said or written outside the debate can
and will be used against them! He never documented a single violation of the
rules by me. Just empty false claims. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Okay well then I will quote Don
outside of facebook where he endorses polygamy and homosexuality and pedophilia
by not condemning the people he does ministry with. He obviously accepts these
then since everything is relevant and can be used. I will also tell the reader
that on Facebook Don talks about his prostate as well publicly with people
since everything is relevant. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;">This debate is now over. I strongly believe that any honest,
objective reader knows that Bale / Conley has utterly failed in his attempt to
prove a late date for the writing of Revelation. Just think about it: Conley
told us repeatedly that he did not have any definitive or conclusive evidence
and yet, he claims that he has proven that the late date is probable. How in
the name of reason and logic can you prove ANYTHING by not offering conclusive,
definitive evidence? The debate has exposed Bale / Conley as a willful liar and
his supporters as those who willfully condoned his sin. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">I strongly believe that any
honest and objective reader will read this debate and regardless of who did the
debate will see that I have not failed. The objective for Don was that he was to
give us definitive evidence for the early date. He does not. He is supposed to
give established fact. He doesn’t manage a single time to do so. Meanwhile, my
objective was that “WHILE NOT DEFINITIVE, the evidence I believe supports a
late date and I am supposed to present my arguments and give a case which I do.
Don asks “How in the name of reason and logic can you prove anything by not
offering conclusive definitive evidence?” I gave strong evidence. The question
should be brought back on Don. How can you prove you are going to give
definitive evidence of an early date of Revelation and then NOT GIVE A SINGLE
piece of information that proves your point? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black;">Don claims lastly that this debate
has exposed me as a liar and that my supporters are all evil for me lying. The
fact of the matter is there was no rule that I had to give true information in
this debate. The fact of the matter is this entire debate has exposed Don as a
pseudo-scholar who does little to no research to peddle his lies. This entire
debate has proven Don is a man with no character, is morally bankrupt and a man
who is willing to lie and misrepresent his opponents’ positions. I will also
again note that Don is a perverted old man who lies and supports ministries
financially of polygamists like William Bell, supports homosexual full
preterists, supports full preterist who engage in threatening to murder people
like Steven Baisden and also supports pedophiles and their perverse “ministries”.
<o:p></o:p></span></p><br /><p></p>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-49830984579154794942021-12-10T20:58:00.004-08:002021-12-10T20:58:42.235-08:00Debating Don Preston: My 2nd Affirmative & Don Preston's 2nd Negative<p>Here is my 2nd affirmative and Don's 2nd Negative: </p><p><b><u>My 2nd Affirmative: </u></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Responding
to Preston’s First Negative:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">My objective in my affirmative of this debate is to affirm
that </span><b style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">while not definitive, the book of
Revelation was likely written in the reign of Emperor Domitian (90s CE) after
the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE and explain why.</b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> Knowing this, Preston
states that I admit that my evidence “is not at all definitive” and claims that
I give “absolutely nothing definitive, not even substantive”. Obvious to any
reader who has read what my objective is to be in this debate and read my first
affirmative, they will find that, yes, obviously none of what I offer here
makes it 100%, without a doubt, definitive or conclusive that the Revelation
was written in the reign of Domitian. One cannot make that claim definitively
for either the early or the late date as we do not possess any manuscript or
anything definitive from the archeology and history books. In other words, we
cannot claim something is an established fact when we do not possess definitive
evidence to prove the claim to be an established fact. Preston cannot prove an
early date and has not done so in his three affirmatives and while I can give
evidences that point to the potential for Revelation to be more likely written
in a later date, I cannot and will not make some definitive statement when it
cannot be established as a fact since that would be dishonest and be
pseudo-scholarship and pseudo-academia. I think it will suffice to just put
some bullet points.</span><br /></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li>Don yet again brings up irrelevant information on Facebook proving he is unable to stick to the debate at hand and shows a large level of unprofessionalism and proves he does not understand how debates work. You are not supposed to be using Facebook posts that aren’t a part of the written debate but I digress.</li><li>Nero’s persecution has only been found to be localized in the Roman capitol.</li><li>I have not produced a citation yet about Domitian by Christians because, as the reader knows, I share that I will begin giving the Christian witness in the 2nd Affirmative here. The first was focused on Roman pagan historians.</li><li>“We should expect some record of the proposed raging Domitian persecution”… the Revelation makes no mention of this persecution being worldwide.</li><li>Don claims I have not provided any evidence of persecution against Christians in Ephesus. Since I focused on Roman historians in the first affirmative I obviously did not bring up all information. </li><li>Don claims I gave no evidence from Roman historians… this is simply a lie and breaks Rule 8 of Hedge’s Rules for Controversy which one can find in the Propositions of Debate. </li><li>Don makes a claim that 1 Peter is definitively written in 65 CE. This is hotly debated by scholarship and academia regularly. We do not have a definitive date on 1 Peter and the authorship itself remains contested in biblical criticism. If anyone is interested however, I recommend reading up on the “secretarial hypothesis” or the amanuensis hypothesis with Peter. Whether 1 Peter is written by Peter himself or written before 70 CE at any rate does not prove anything definitively about the Revelation and its written date.</li><li>Don seems to think there had to be a massive persecution to take place but this is not the case with the Revelation. Secondly, Asia Minor and other provinces could very well have faced some persecutions and be put under pressure by Rome and Jews in combination before and after 70 CE so there is no reason to believe they did not face any troubles as a new sect and people group from opposing forces at any period in the first place and face none whatsoever.</li><li>Don makes definitive statements like “Revelation was clearly written before Revelation”… I suppose he meant to type “70 CE” there. He has no definitive facts to offer. He had three times to do that in his affirmative and failed to do so.</li><li>Don makes a false dichotomy saying I have to prove 1 Peter and Revelation have two different persecutions in mind. I do not have to do any of that as that is not the topic of the debate.</li><li>Don gives some interpretation of his about Matthew 23 and 1 Thess. 2:15-16 that can be rejected and dismissed in this debate since none of them prove a thing about Revelation nor its dating. </li><li>Don surprisingly brings up scholar LL Thompson. However, Eusebius’ writings as well as Irenaeus’ do not speak of a huge nor worldwide persecution of Christians under Domitian. Domitian’s persecution of Christians need not be a genocide. The Revelation also does not claim that to be such. </li><li>Don demands I produce a definitive and irrefutable piece of evidence that proves Revelation is written after 70 CE. You first Mr. Preston. You could not manage to give a single bit of definitive nor irrefutable evidence beyond your private and subjective and easily refutable interpretations of the Bible. I would remind the reader that my objective is not to demand definitive evidence. That was Don’s affirmative to prove definitively that Revelation was written before 70 CE and he conclusively and definitively DID NOT DO SO. No. Not even a keystroke. </li><li>On the contrary, my objective of the debate and my affirmative is that while there is more than enough evidence to support a late date, there is nothing conclusive nor definitive to prove irrefutably that the Revelation is written early nor late date. We simply do not know what year it was written beyond that it was written in the first century. Beyond that, it is simply a matter of making solid but educated guesses and hoping we find some more evidences later to show the truth of this matter.</li><li>I do not try to convince the reader that Nero did not exile people. I clearly give evidence that he did sometimes exile people. What I do say is that this was not common. Gentry, while I respect as a fellow scholar, does not make this as a definitive claim either. The fact that Don would misrepresent Kenneth Gentry speaks volumes to his character.</li><li>Nero and Domitian are both referred to as beasts. Gentry’s statements, and he admits this as a scholar he is, that none of this is definitive. Gentry attempts to make his best educated guesses and work from an academic perspective a case for the early date of Revelation. He knows it is not definitive. All scholars worth their salt know this.</li><li>If this Mark Wilson claims that Pliny does not speak of a persecution of Christians, then I’d have to question this man’s claims of scholarship. Pliny does in fact speak of what punishments he has inflicted on Christians who did not worship the emperor’s “genius” and the pantheon of gods and goddesses of Rome, in this case, Trajan’s reign this is known to have happened (we also have documentation from Christian sources that this happened so what in the world is Preston talking about?).</li><li>Don makes a laughable statement about Pliny’s reference to past trials of Christians… I never once claimed this was a settled policy. Preston needs to learn to tell the truth instead of actively lying and misrepresenting people. He breaks Rule 9 here.</li><li>Pliny asks Trajan if he will continue policies that are likely established from past emperors like Nero, Vespasian, and Domitian. We know all three of these emperors actually deal with Christians according to Roman and Christian witness and historians on some level. If Pliny does not do his job well, Trajan as emperor can remove him as governor and if you are removed that usually means an execution will take place. Does Don not realize this?</li><li>Don asks an absurd question about Pliny being unaware of Christians being persecuted… being a favorite of Domitian’s does not equate to knowing what to do with a Christian. Pliny is recorded as having said he has not ever witnessed a trial for Christians. This is why he asks Trajan about the correct procedure in the first place.</li><li>Don claims Revelation is a Jewish book… this is a Christian writing.</li><li>Don claims the Revelation is about “the imminent fulfillment of God’s Old Covenant promises made to Old Covenant Israel”. Again an interpretation that would be hotly contested by the majority of scholars. Most scholars say Jesus fulfilled all promises of the Old Covenant at the Cross but I digress. Preston simply states things as facts many a time when they are not or the majority would consider what he claims is “biblical” as heresy.</li><li>He claims Revelation 19 is a direct citation of Deuteronomy 32:43… This is completely false. Revelation never once quotes nor directly cites Deuteronomy 32 whatsoever. </li><li>Don claims Revelation 6 applies Isaiah 2-4 to it… Yet, nowhere does Revelation quote or directly cite Isaiah 2-4 in it. Don is outright lying to his readers when he makes claims like this.</li><li>I did accuse Don many times of violating the rules because he did in fact break the rules he agreed and set forth in the debate. He has been anything but professional in the course of this debate and I document this all quite clearly. He can deny this if he wishes but it will still always be a bold faced lie since I document them all clearly. </li><li>Nowhere in this negative does he even come close to addressing any of the arguments I give. So be it. Moving onward now to the second affirmative of the debate.</li></ul><p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: Times New Roman, serif;">Second
Affirmative:</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">This will be my second affirmative of the debate with
Don Preston. My objective is to show that while not definitive, the book of
Revelation was likely written in the reign of Emperor Domitian (90s CE) after
the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE and explain why. In the first affirmative, I
covered a lot of archaeological facts and historical facts from the Roman
historians that give credibility to Revelation being written in the reign of
Domitian. In this second affirmative, I will be covering more archeological and
historical facts but I will be covering the Jewish and Christian witness as
well. We focused heavily on Ephesus in the reign of Domitian in the first
affirmative. Here let us focus on Pergamum.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Archaeology:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Temple
of Serapis at Pergamum: </span></b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Here below are some pictures to show
you the ruins of the temple once dedicated to Serapis. I’ve also put Serapis
and Apis which were worshipped in syncretistic fashion here as a visual.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgKxLJvFAkvUsR4HSVhsbRa3tpghL51_wETeo6eqgzh5fWI1mRV1Xy8LmNxbUyeTqjYqXO36cBWbDeeYrhd-rrx8Hp0lQ-8KMndQbsKvi0nbQ0a87Y-kH3mr6sfWVvd-aZOMU5NnlzW-jYEgF_atzf8zVagB2pj28dhjkFvyVTr_wkLgKnmqQNPJ6TE=s500" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="335" data-original-width="500" height="214" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgKxLJvFAkvUsR4HSVhsbRa3tpghL51_wETeo6eqgzh5fWI1mRV1Xy8LmNxbUyeTqjYqXO36cBWbDeeYrhd-rrx8Hp0lQ-8KMndQbsKvi0nbQ0a87Y-kH3mr6sfWVvd-aZOMU5NnlzW-jYEgF_atzf8zVagB2pj28dhjkFvyVTr_wkLgKnmqQNPJ6TE=s320" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEic9hxPYU2IDEMv5uoyAZy8zC2aJB3I9nIBxC4p9bKNC8434F6yBwIOaVRhs6ed4QAEWWgn4I1tPjEAUQQKTpAtM2zm_egaSM9m-qZnob4jKrewsq5_PsZpM5zY1UekCqZYrss8TK__Xzu24dVMXbW15lsQJ-9hZhn5Te7ALfJ-uTA1YuavbWHVoHgf=s465" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="446" data-original-width="465" height="307" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEic9hxPYU2IDEMv5uoyAZy8zC2aJB3I9nIBxC4p9bKNC8434F6yBwIOaVRhs6ed4QAEWWgn4I1tPjEAUQQKTpAtM2zm_egaSM9m-qZnob4jKrewsq5_PsZpM5zY1UekCqZYrss8TK__Xzu24dVMXbW15lsQJ-9hZhn5Te7ALfJ-uTA1YuavbWHVoHgf=s320" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjN40JZAe-q0-4HOnGY8TYnq03LTo_3NthbGXQA4wW-tO54u4rBToOhR2v_JIARcyw34W1tTLDw7l9Zq2e7kz_OJU01JXdKoDAA2EMOgy-Ou2kdlQsgyWgQbDJhErbm4cMVNp5N6ekK3KoEdMWC04_3iiO2_B4zXVEmokm0tfwZmch7n3L-ZK73Rkkt=s581" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="435" data-original-width="581" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjN40JZAe-q0-4HOnGY8TYnq03LTo_3NthbGXQA4wW-tO54u4rBToOhR2v_JIARcyw34W1tTLDw7l9Zq2e7kz_OJU01JXdKoDAA2EMOgy-Ou2kdlQsgyWgQbDJhErbm4cMVNp5N6ekK3KoEdMWC04_3iiO2_B4zXVEmokm0tfwZmch7n3L-ZK73Rkkt=s320" width="320" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEii_evXLaCunue8CzROaCVBmbsoGD3T_sXTJsKjzub6rxBT3Jdz2IQyw1YlBN3l4qbvbvca977voSpEMhRhohC_Q0s4esR_sHH6q7B9YWfInPa6wn22mjU3X88dzs_Jbpxna0y4UZV03NA9coPh2_fM1_U37FCFpHyZpEWqEa4FRu7sPSxb1BazZSsO=s768" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="768" data-original-width="523" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEii_evXLaCunue8CzROaCVBmbsoGD3T_sXTJsKjzub6rxBT3Jdz2IQyw1YlBN3l4qbvbvca977voSpEMhRhohC_Q0s4esR_sHH6q7B9YWfInPa6wn22mjU3X88dzs_Jbpxna0y4UZV03NA9coPh2_fM1_U37FCFpHyZpEWqEa4FRu7sPSxb1BazZSsO=s320" width="218" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjH5zZymKCC5xsQ_DxfoSsl5volxKuB50OwNHWdmWnrBoLBc8yCxYndDgNgzJTXMmCKt47J5VEehrVSDMN_i7c6h0ynIGDm-y_kq8_5a4TA4o5TGDEYReucEi7rGPucaZUzgN1tq82U_qS-mGh0rhFXrL4qT-jJrfgiqoljV_D2b-0J86uH9f6YQmNG=s358" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="358" data-original-width="304" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjH5zZymKCC5xsQ_DxfoSsl5volxKuB50OwNHWdmWnrBoLBc8yCxYndDgNgzJTXMmCKt47J5VEehrVSDMN_i7c6h0ynIGDm-y_kq8_5a4TA4o5TGDEYReucEi7rGPucaZUzgN1tq82U_qS-mGh0rhFXrL4qT-jJrfgiqoljV_D2b-0J86uH9f6YQmNG=s320" width="272" /></a></div><br /><br /><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Serapis was a syncretistic god of Egypt consisting of
the bull god Apis and Osiris. Serapis’ cultus was centralized in Alexandria but
it was a widespread cult and it is an established fact that it was this god who
was, along with the rest of the Greco-Roman pantheon worshipped by Greco-Romans
and paganism in general. We see in Hadrian’s reign in the 2</span><sup style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">nd</sup><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
Century the “Red Basilica” be built but we know as an established fact that in
Pergamum through archaeological digs of this area and around it that this was a
place where this deity was heavily worshipped and many times there were
offerings given where they would place the offerings to the god in a bull
shaped object resembling Apis and this was being done before Hadrian built the
Temple to Serapis here. With no reason to doubt the Revelation’s mention of
Antipas’ martyrdom, we know from the Christian tradition that St. Antipas, the
martyr mentioned by name in Revelation 2:13 was martyred in Pergamum. The text
says twice in Revelation 2:13 that here in Pergamum is “where Satan’s throne
is” and that this is where he, “My [God’s] witness and faithful one, Antipas,
who was killed among you, where Satan dwells”. The Synaxarion, which is in the
10</span><sup style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">th</sup><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> Century Menologion of Saints, a work about the lives of the
saints that was redone and constructed from hagiographical works before in menologians
created before the 10</span><sup style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">th</sup><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> Ce., by St. Symeon the Metaphrast, says that
Antipas died in the reign of Domitian when he was cast into a bronze bull and
burned alive in it for his faithfulness in Christ. If this is the case, we have
ample enough evidence to confirm it is possible since there was, and this is
established fact, a temple to Serapis right there in Pergamum. We must also
note the reference to a temple that is referenced as “where Satan dwells” and
“where Satan’s throne is”. Most scholars see this to be a reference to The
Temple of Zeus at Pergamum. Pagan culture often worshipped all these panthea of
deities together but it would be of no surprise to see a Christian being
offered up to the pagan gods for the pagans to try and appease the gods as they
saw the Christian as an abomination and one who causes disorder for the
Greco-Roman way of life.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Temple
of Zeus at Pergamum: </span></b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Erected at Pergamum at the tallest point
of the city, we know it cast a shadow over the majority of the city. If
Revelation was written in the reign of Domitian and Domitian was declaring
himself the incarnation of Zeus (Jupiter), then he not only had Ephesus to be
worshipped at but also Pergamum for imperial worship. Christians would have
obviously had an issue with this. This is likely what the “throne of Satan” is
in Revelation that is being referenced. Here are two pictures of the remains of
the Temple which are now in a museum in Berlin. <o:p></o:p></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEigvS6C4O_qJtc4xG61Ziapb2Vjyk1EUNjmdfzYGJuIRiufmFeMPaVUMeIXgw5IrhwpVn3S7d78y_G3hPQ7DI2u6mCdtGB8P7yiT4-DA3Fo4yGWkd4KjuKZ9DEcnQGs5negu7zM-ahmOoB-aj-ztziHtrBEhaKSIBagdTuLilHxkwuF80HBklwW4bra=s296" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="197" data-original-width="296" height="197" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEigvS6C4O_qJtc4xG61Ziapb2Vjyk1EUNjmdfzYGJuIRiufmFeMPaVUMeIXgw5IrhwpVn3S7d78y_G3hPQ7DI2u6mCdtGB8P7yiT4-DA3Fo4yGWkd4KjuKZ9DEcnQGs5negu7zM-ahmOoB-aj-ztziHtrBEhaKSIBagdTuLilHxkwuF80HBklwW4bra" width="296" /></a><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEigvS6C4O_qJtc4xG61Ziapb2Vjyk1EUNjmdfzYGJuIRiufmFeMPaVUMeIXgw5IrhwpVn3S7d78y_G3hPQ7DI2u6mCdtGB8P7yiT4-DA3Fo4yGWkd4KjuKZ9DEcnQGs5negu7zM-ahmOoB-aj-ztziHtrBEhaKSIBagdTuLilHxkwuF80HBklwW4bra=s296" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"></a><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEheCvRw82cwPDwT_Rt1VOpJmjq5k_W2C2E2F19Aa-0xOZ6m4JdH9DP16Fv0sb1HqjWda6sQZj6z7Gyv_VwCNYPvmKkaoqNS65Xk00NHNHm9oYd5VD2JAsAZ_gBKwwoJLnit4hy-IqBQgDzi7-byy8j0gxLQhW8dbI4Jl8l6hkB9yzVMGI0-4dTDG5sY=s714" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="514" data-original-width="714" height="230" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEheCvRw82cwPDwT_Rt1VOpJmjq5k_W2C2E2F19Aa-0xOZ6m4JdH9DP16Fv0sb1HqjWda6sQZj6z7Gyv_VwCNYPvmKkaoqNS65Xk00NHNHm9oYd5VD2JAsAZ_gBKwwoJLnit4hy-IqBQgDzi7-byy8j0gxLQhW8dbI4Jl8l6hkB9yzVMGI0-4dTDG5sY=s320" width="320" /></a></div></div><p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="Picture_x0020_7" o:spid="_x0000_s1026"
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</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">The cult of imperial worship was strong in Pergamum.
It is an established fact that under Augustus’ reign, shortly after his death
there was established an imperial cult for Augustus and Dea Roma, though
Augustus never established a neokorate while alive. Domitian it is established
saw himself as the incarnation of Zeus (Jupiter). If this is the case, then in
Pergamum, Christians would have found themselves in an even tougher situation
of living there as they would be forced to pay tribute to the Emperor and thus,
offer at the Temple of Zeus. It may very well be that St. Antipas suffered his
martyrdom for this very reason in opposing the wishes of the Imperial Edict
that he, Domitian be worshipped as Lord and God of the pantheon and Rome. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Smyrna</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">On a final note for archaeology and history, I will
simply bring up the established fact that the first imperial cult of Dea Roma
was established in Smyrna in 195 BC. This continued well into Nero and
Domitian’s periods of reigns and beyond that. While we must obviously
distinguish between localized and officially established neokorates that were
established and dedicated to the Emperor, we must note for the purpose of this
debate that the Imperial Cultus of Dea Roma was well established here and all
over Asia Minor’s provinces and for those who do not know, Dea Roma was the
personification of the city of Rome. Dea Roma, if the name doesn’t give it away
was personified as a beautiful woman. It is likely that since Rome’s central
city in Italy stands on seven hills and she is personified as a woman that this
is the identification of Revelation 17’s “Whore of Babylon” who sits on the
seven hills. Lyder Brun’s study of Revelation 17 demonstrates this likelihood
strongly that this chapter was written in Domitian’s reign<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">2<sup>nd</sup>
Temple Judaism Examples</span></b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;"><br />
As L.L. Thompson notes “<i>In Jewish
literature, the enemy Rome is designated Edom, Kittim, and Egypt, as well as
Babylon. For the most part, however, the identity with Babylon occurs after 70
CE, that is, Rome is called Babylon after she destroys Jerusalem and the
Temple”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><b><span style="line-height: 107%;">[2]</span></b></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>.
</i><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">2<sup>nd</sup> Temple Judaism literature roughly
covers writings dating from 200 BCE to 200 CE. Large numbers of writings would
be lost from this period by the transmitted Jewish heritage were it not
strangely preserved and transmitted by Christians by and large. Much of what is
often called the <i>Pseudepigrapha</i> is
preserved thanks to Christianity. The Pseudepigrapha is an important collection
of works that gives us an important source and insight into understanding all
social, theological, religious, etc. dimensions of Early Judaism, and obviously
a keen insight into the world of 2<sup>nd</sup> Temple Judaism and thus, what
stemmed from it, being Reform Judaism and Early Christianity. To paraphrase
James H. Charlesworth a bit, without these important writings, we would as
historians find it near impossible to explain the course of religious
development between 200 BCE and 200 CE. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">We find in general, that “Babylon” became code-name
for Rome near the end of the first century and this can be found in 1 Peter
5:13 (most scholars date this at a later date but as is all things; it is
debatable), 4 Esdras 3:1; Sibylline Oracles 5:143:159 and the Greek Apocalypse
of Baruch 10:1-3; 11:1; 67:7, all of these works date after the destruction of
Jerusalem (70 CE to 120 CE. The term Babylon is used later by 2<sup>nd</sup>
Temple Judaism sources versus other terms like Edom and Kittim because of it
doing what the Babylonian Empire did to the Temple before when it destroyed the
first one. This was the 2<sup>nd</sup> Temple destroyed and it had been
destroyed by Rome. Thus, the literature reflected this and named Rome off in
code as Babylon. If Revelation is written in the reign of Domitian, it is of no
surprise that works largely working as a polemic against pagans, would also
name Rome as Babylon. Though not definitive, a case can be made quite strongly
for it as is shown. I thought I may type out what these works state but I will
just presume the readers of this debate can think and read these works for
themselves and do their own studies. Just to add fuel to this fire, it is also
strongly hinted in Chapter 21 of Revelation that the Temple in Jerusalem is
fallen and gone since the Heavenly City doesn’t have a Temple in it. It seems
like it would be odd for a second temple Jew, even as a Christian, like John to
say there is no temple there if it was still existing and instead has resigned
himself to the fact that there is no temple and it has been replaced by Christ
because they no longer need a temple but that is just personal conjecture and
an interpretation and by no means is it definitive.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color: #404040; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Patristic Christian Support<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #404040; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">It becomes quite evident that patristic
support is almost unanimous about Revelation being written in the reign of
Domitian. Clement of Rome comes first. Widely held to have been written in
Domitian’s reign, this writing speaks right at the beginning of the church in
Rome had experienced persecution or pressure taking place, enough to make
Clement speak of “sudden and successive calamitous events which have happened
to ourselves”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #404040; line-height: 107%;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #404040; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">When reading for pieces of evidence of
an early date, you find mention of St. John potentially being martyred before
70 CE. The source however is supposedly a testimony from Papias which was first
discovered in the last part of the 19<sup>th</sup> Century. It is a source from
a fragment that comes from a monastic’s writing named Georgius Harmarolus from
the 9<sup>th</sup> Century. At first glance, this seems like a strong piece of
evidence perhaps but when one digs deeper into the source, to believe this
testimony that comes from Hamarolus would require us to accept that John was
recalled from Patmos by Nerva in the late 90s and also martyred with his
brother James before 70 CE in 44 CE… Also, we would have to accept from
Hamarolus that he lived out his days in Ephesus near the turn of the century…
As anyone who can read can see, this is genuinely absurd and clearly this
monastic was confused over whatever he was writing here. The next early
evidence is an abridgment of “History of Christianity” by a 5<sup>th</sup>
Century Philip of Side who is mostly unreliable<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #404040; line-height: 107%;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #404040; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Irenaeus of Lyons, St. John’s spiritual
grandson, gives the date and place of the Revelation’s composition and it has
really only been in recent times that the date has been called into question by
proponents of certain eschatological schemes (primarily forms of preterism)
which all originate from Calvinist theological circles. Their propositions
are based on nothing but interpretations of the Revelation that they hold which
are usually to try and keep to their dedication to some certain views they hold
of biblical inerrancy or about sola scriptura or a belief in cessationism.
Theological motivations aside, there is no legitimate reason found to disregard
the historical testimony of the early church on these matters, nor to propose
another dating system based purely on conjecture.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #404040; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">All the earliest references to
Revelation and its Johannine origin all center around the area of Asia Minor
surrounding Ephesus. They all virtually attribute the Revelation to St. John
and most often this is done through the testimony of St. Polycarp, a bishop of
Smyrna. Polycarp, Irenaeus, and Papias in particular all attribute their
teaching and testimonies to St. John and say he wrote the Revelation and was
bishop of Ephesus’ church there. We know Ephesus became the center for Christianity
after the Temple of Jerusalem was destroyed as well and this is an established
fact of Christian history from secular as well as church sources. All sources
that mention the book of Revelation from Polycarp to Justin Martyr all have a connection
to Ephesus. St. Justin’s Dialogue with Trypho is actually set in Ephesus. The
Revelation therefore for the Christians is definitely set in connection to John
and the city of Ephesus in that respect historically. None of the writers see
it as non-controversial to date the text as anything other than the reign of
Domitian and there is no opposition to Irenaeus’ statement made by any other
writers. Neither are any who virtually write anything that would challenge this
notion. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #404040; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Irenaeus says quite clearly in his writings
that “</span><span style="background: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">…were it necessary that his [the Antichrist]
name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been
announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very
long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftn5" name="_ftnref5" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; color: #222222; line-height: 107%;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>.
The date of the composition of the text was non-controversial. That it was
being cited authoritatively in the mid-2<sup>nd</sup> Century also implies a
date of composition at the end of the first century. We also don’t find church
historian Eusebius taking issue or even discussing anything of the sort about
it being in some form of dispute either. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="background: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">It must be noted that
Eusebius’ claims here get backed by Jerome and Eusebius will ultimately back up
the history he writes about from fellow historians who came before him like
Roman historians and Christian ones as well as what he’s gathered from the
writings of Tertullian, Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Papias, Ignatius of Antioch,
Hegesippus, who records martyrdoms through the church’s history, and more.
Eusebius gets a lot of his information on John the Apostle and the Revelation
from Hegesippus and Irenaeus mostly.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="background: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Hegesippus’ works do not
actually survive except through various writers sourcing him, but we know he
wrote 5 books called “Memoirs” or “Memoranda”. The Memoirs were known to the
Church of Rome and the East Churches. Jerome in <i>De viris illustribus</i>, 22, mentions him as one who wrote a history
of all ecclesiastical events from the Passion of Jesus the Christ all to his
own time. He was one of the first historians of the Church and we know from
what has survived from Eusebius sourcing the Memoirs often that he was one “who
lived immediately after the apostles” who gives the most accurate accounts of
church history and major events for the Church like the death and martyrdom of
St. James, something also cited by Origen in <i>Against Celsus</i> and Josephus in his <i>Antiquities</i><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftn6" name="_ftnref6" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; color: #222222; line-height: 107%;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>.
The historians like Eusebius can match and verify Hegesippus’ writings with
others when it comes to things like St. James’ martyrdom so it stands to reason
that when it comes to Eusebius quoting him on matters like Nero’s persecution
of Christians and the martyrdom of Peter and Paul (which is also backed by
Tertullian as Eusebius says (Tertullian. Defense. 5) than it stands to reason
we can trust Hegesippus when it comes to the reign of Domitian as in Book 3 of
Church History, Hegesippus remains vitally important to cite for his reported
accuracy of events when he reports that Clement became bishop of Rome and was
the one written of in Paul’s letters to the Philippians and that this Clement
wrote (1 Clement) to the Corinthians due to some acts of sedition and persecution
there of that church under Domitian’s reign. Right in the middle of citing
Hegesippus, is where Eusebius brings about Irenaeus to show agreement between
the two that John was banished from Patmos showing us that Hegesippus also must
write about Domitian’s reign being when John gets exiled, which means they both
agree and both are historically correct.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="background: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">As a matter of fact, in
Eusebius’ Church History, Book 3, he confirms his and Hegesippus’ agreement
with Irenaeus on the dating because to back Irenaeus, he also uses the church
historian in Chapter 17-19 where he states that there was, in fact, persecution
under Domitian, confirms it through Irenaeus’ work Against Heresies so there
are two sources now, and documents for us that <i>“to such a degree, indeed, did the teaching of our faith flourish at
that time that even those writers who were far from our religion did not
hesitate to mention in their histories the persecution and the martyrdoms that
took place during it. And they, indeed, accurately indicated the time for they
recorded that in the 15<sup>th</sup> year of Domitian Flavia Domitilla,
daughter of a sister of Flavius Clement, at that time, a consul of Rome, was
exiled with many others to the island of Pontia in consequence of testimony
borne to Christ”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftn7" name="_ftnref7" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><b><span style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; color: #222222; line-height: 107%;">[7]</span></b></span><!--[endif]--></span></a></i>.
Eusebius also records more than just the date of Revelation and that is what
helps us confirm the accuracy. Before I show this quote I would also ask the
reader to note that Tertullian is also mentioned as standing in agreement
giving three in agreement with Eusebius here that this happened. Eusebius
states that during this persecution, (confirmed by Hegesippus recording the
history, which leaves two historians in agreement here) quoting Hegesippus in
Church History Chapter 19-20 that Domitian persecuted Christians, namely, the
descendants of St. Jude and this is what led to St. John being exiled to
Patmos. He states <i>“…</i></span><i><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114b.htm">Domitian</a> had commanded the descendants of David should be slain, an ancient tradition says that some of the <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm">heretics</a> brought accusation against the descendants of Jude (said to have been a <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02767a.htm">brother of the Savior</a> according to the flesh), on the ground that they were of the lineage of David and were related to <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm">Christ</a> himself. <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07194a.htm">Hegesippus</a> relates these facts in the following words: ‘Of the <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05782a.htm">family</a> of the <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm">Lord</a> there were still living the grandchildren of Jude, who is said to have been the <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02767a.htm">Lord's brother</a> according to the flesh. Information was given that they belonged to the <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05782a.htm">family</a> of David, and they were brought to <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114b.htm">Emperor Domitian</a> by the Evocatus. For <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114b.htm">Domitian</a> feared the coming of <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10212c.htm">Christ</a> as <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07289c.htm">Herod</a> also had feared it. And he asked them if they were descendants of David, and they confessed that they were. Then he asked them how much property they had, or how much money they owned. And both of them answered that they had only nine thousand denarii, half of which belonged to each of them. And this property did not consist of silver, but of a piece of land which contained only thirty-nine acres, and from which they raised their taxes and supported themselves by their own labor. Then they showed their hands, exhibiting the hardness of their bodies and the callousness produced upon their hands by continuous toil as evidence of their own labor. And when they were asked concerning <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm">Christ</a> and his kingdom, of what sort it was and where and when it was to appear, they answered that it was not a temporal nor an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly and angelic one, which would appear at the end of the world, when he should come in <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm">glory</a> to <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm">judge</a> the quick and the dead, and to give unto every one according to his works. Upon hearing this, <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114b.htm">Domitian</a> did not pass judgment against them, but, despising them as of no account, he let them go, and by a decree put a stop to the <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm">persecution</a> of the <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm">Church</a>. But when they were released they ruled the <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm">churches</a> because they were witnesses and were also <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05782a.htm">relatives</a> of the <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm">Lord</a>. And peace being established, they lived until the time of <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15015a.htm">Trajan</a>. These things are related to <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07194a.htm">Hegesippus</a>. <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14520c.htm">Tertullian</a> also has mentioned <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114b.htm">Domitian</a> in the following words: <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114b.htm">Domitian</a>, who possessed a share of <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10752c.htm">Nero's</a> cruelty, attempted once to do the same thing that the latter did. But because he had, I suppose, some intelligence, he very soon ceased and even recalled those whom he had banished. But after <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114b.htm">Domitian</a> had reigned fifteen years, and Nerva had succeeded to the empire, the Roman Senate, according to the writers that record the history of those days, voted that <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114b.htm">Domitian's</a> <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07462a.htm">honors</a> should be canceled and that those who had been <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08010c.htm">unjustly</a> banished should return to their homes and have their property restored to them. It was at this time that the apostle John returned from his banishment in the island and took up his abode at <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05490a.htm">Ephesus</a>, according to an ancient <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm">Christian</a> <a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm">tradition</a>.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftn8" name="_ftnref8" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><b><span style="line-height: 107%;">[8]</span></b></span><!--[endif]--></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Chapter 23 of Church History by Eusebius confirms that
John the apostle <i>“returned after the
death of Domitian from his exile on the island. And that he was still alive at
that time may be established by the testimony of two witnesses. They should be
trustworthy who have maintained the orthodoxy of the Church; and such indeed were
Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria. The former is in the second book of his
work Against Heresies, writes as follows: And all the elders that
associated with John the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05029a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">disciple</span></a></span></span> of the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Lord</span></a></span></span> in
Asia bear witness that John delivered it to them. For he remained among them
until the time of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15015a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Trajan</span></a></span></span>. And in the third book of the
same work he attests the same thing in the following words: But the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">church</span></a></span></span> in <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05490a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Ephesus</span></a></span></span> also,
which was founded by <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Paul</span></a></span></span>, and where John remained until
the time of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15015a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Trajan</span></a></span></span>, is a faithful witness of the
apostolic tradition. Clement likewise in his book entitled What Rich Man can be
saved? indicates the time, and subjoins a narrative that is most attractive to
those that enjoy hearing what is beautiful and profitable. Take and read the
account which runs as follows: Listen to a tale, which is not a mere tale, but
a narrative concerning <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08492a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">John the apostle</span></a></span></span>, which has been
handed down and treasured up in memory. For when, after the tyrant's death, he
returned from the isle of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11547a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Patmos</span></a></span></span> to <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05490a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Ephesus</span></a></span></span>, he
went away upon their invitation to the neighboring territories of the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06422a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Gentiles</span></a></span></span>, to
appoint <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">bishops</span></a></span></span> in
some places, in other places to set in order whole <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">churches</span></a></span></span>,
elsewhere to choose to the ministry someone of those that were pointed out by
the Spirit”.<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftn9" name="_ftnref9" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><b><span style="line-height: 107%;">[9]</span></b></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>”</i><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Lastly, in Chapter 32-33 he confirms it again when he
quotes Hegesippus again saying persecution took place from Domitian and this in
part, led Emperor Trajan later to forbid the Christians to be intentionally
sought out for trials and persecutions. This gets confirmed as you read Pliny
the Younger’s letters to Trajan (that I referenced and discussed in the first
affirmative). Eusebius writes: <i>“there
were also others, descended from one of the so-called brothers of the Savior,
whose name was Jude, who, after they had borne testimony before <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Domitian</span></a></span></span>, as
has been already recorded, in behalf of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">faith</span></a></span></span> in <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Christ</span></a></span></span>,
lived until the same reign. He writes as follows: They came, therefore,
and took the lead of every <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">church</span></a></span></span> as witnesses and
as <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05782a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">relatives</span></a></span></span> of
the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Lord</span></a></span></span>. And
profound peace being established It is reported that after the age of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10752c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Nero</span></a></span></span> and <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Domitian</span></a></span></span>,
under the emperor whose times we are now recording, a <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">persecution</span></a></span></span> was
stirred up against us in certain cities in consequence of a popular uprising.
In this <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">persecution</span></a></span></span></i></span><span class="MsoHyperlink"><i><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">,</span></i></span><i><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;"> we have understood that Symeon,
the son of Clopas, who, as we have shown, was the second <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">bishop</span></a></span></span> of
the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">church</span></a></span></span> of
Jerusalem, suffered <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">martyrdom</span></a></span></span>. <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07194a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Hegesippus</span></a></span></span>, whose words we have
already quoted in various places, is a <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15677a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">witness</span></a></span></span> to this fact also.
Speaking of certain <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">heretics</span></a></span></span> he adds that Symeon
was accused by them at this time; and since it was clear that he was a <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Christian</span></a></span></span>,
he was tortured in various ways for many days, and astonished even the judge
himself and his attendants in the highest degree, and finally, he suffered a
death similar to that of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">our Lord</span></a></span></span>. But there is nothing like
hearing the historian himself, who writes as follows: Certain of
these <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">heretics</span></a></span></span> brought
accusation against Symeon, the son of Clopas, on the ground that he was a
descendant of David and a <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Christian</span></a></span></span>; and thus he
suffered <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">martyrdom</span></a></span></span>, at the age of one hundred
and twenty years, while <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15015a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Trajan</span></a></span></span> was emperor and Atticus
governor. And the same writer says that his accusers also when a search was
made for the descendants of David, were arrested as belonging to that <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05782a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">family</span></a></span></span>. And
it might be reasonably assumed that Symeon was one of those that saw and heard
the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Lord</span></a></span></span>,
judging from the length of his life, and from the fact that the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Gospel</span></a></span></span> makes
mention of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09748b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Mary, the wife of Clopas</span></a></span></span>, who was
the father of Symeon, as has been already shown. The same historian says in
every <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">church</span></a></span></span>, they
remained until the reign of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15015a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Emperor Trajan</span></a></span></span>, and until the
above-mentioned Symeon, son of Clopas, an uncle of the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Lord</span></a></span></span>, was
informed against by the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">heretics</span></a></span></span> and was himself in like
manner accused of the same <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">cause</span></a></span></span> before the governor
Atticus. And after being tortured for many days he suffered <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">martyrdom</span></a></span></span>,
and all, including even the proconsul, marveled that, at the age of one hundred
and twenty years, he could endure so much. And orders were given that he should
be crucified. In addition to these things the same man, while recounting the
events of that period, records that the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Church</span></a></span></span> up to that time had
remained a pure and uncorrupted virgin, since, if there were any that attempted
to corrupt the sound norm of the preaching of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">salvation</span></a></span></span>, they lay until then
concealed in obscure darkness. But when the sacred college of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">apostles</span></a></span></span> had
suffered death in various forms, and the generation of those that had been
deemed worthy to hear the inspired wisdom with their own ears had passed away,
then the league of godless <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05525a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">error</span></a></span></span> took its rise as a result
of the folly of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">heretical</span></a></span></span> teachers, who,
because none of the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">apostles</span></a></span></span> was still living,
attempted henceforth, with a bold face, to proclaim, in opposition to the
preaching of the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">truth</span></a></span></span>, the '<span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">knowledge</span></a></span></span> which
is <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05781a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">falsely</span></a></span></span> so-called.'
[Chapter 33 begins here] So great a <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">persecution</span></a></span></span> was at that time
opened against us in many places that Plinius Secundus, one of the most noted
of governors, being disturbed by the great number of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">martyrs</span></a></span></span>,
communicated with the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15015a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">emperor</span></a></span></span> concerning the
multitude of those that were <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">put to death</span></a></span></span> for their <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">faith</span></a></span></span>. At
the same time, he informed him in his communication that he had not heard of
their doing anything profane or contrary to the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">laws</span></a></span></span> — except that they arose
at dawn and sang <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07595a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">hymns</span></a></span></span> to <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Christ</span></a></span></span> as
a <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">God</span></a></span></span>; but
that they renounced <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01163a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">adultery</span></a></span></span> and <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07441a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">murder</span></a></span></span> and
like criminal offenses, and did all things following the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">laws</span></a></span></span>. In
reply to this <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15015a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Trajan</span></a></span></span> made the following
decree: that the race of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Christians</span></a></span></span> should not be sought
after, but when found should be punished. On account of this, the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">persecution</span></a></span></span> which
had threatened to be a most terrible one was to a certain degree checked, but
there were still left plenty of pretexts for those who wished to do us harm.
Sometimes the people and sometimes the rulers in various places would lay plots
against us, so that, although no great <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">persecutions</span></a></span></span> took place,
local <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">persecutions</span></a></span></span> were
nevertheless going on in particular provinces, and many of the faithful
endured <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">martyrdom</span></a></span></span> in
various forms. We have taken our account from the Latin Apology of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14520c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Tertullian</span></a></span></span> which
we mentioned above. The translation runs as follows: And indeed we have found that
search for us has been forbidden. For when Plinius Secundus, the governor of a
province, had condemned certain <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Christians</span></a></span></span> and deprived them of
their dignity, he was confounded by the multitude and was uncertain what
further course to pursue. He therefore communicated with <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15015a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Trajan the emperor</span></a></span></span>,
informing him that, aside from their unwillingness to sacrifice, he had found
no impiety in them. And he reported this also, that the <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Christians</span></a></span></span> arose
early in the morning and sang <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07595a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">hymns</span></a></span></span> unto <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Christ</span></a></span></span> as
a <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">God</span></a></span></span>, and to
preserve their discipline forbade <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07441a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">murder</span></a></span></span>, <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01163a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">adultery</span></a></span></span>, <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02148b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">avarice</span></a></span></span>, <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14564b.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">robbery</span></a></span></span>, and
the like. In reply to this <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15015a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Trajan</span></a></span></span> wrote that the race
of <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: windowtext;"><a href="https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm"><span style="line-height: 107%;">Christians</span></a></span></span> should
not be sought after, but when found should be punished. Such were the events
which took place at that time.”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftn10" name="_ftnref10" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><b><span style="line-height: 107%;">[10]</span></b></span><!--[endif]--></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">It can also be added for additional support to
Eusebius’ accuracy on this issue that he also sources from Polycrates, bishop
of Ephesus who had known both Polycarp and Irenaeus and confirms that John did
die in Ephesus in the reign of Trajan, backing again Irenaeus’ claims (this is
around 190 CE)<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftn11" name="_ftnref11" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[11]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>.
It appears that Irenaeus can indeed be trusted. While this perhaps is all by no
means definitive and there is certainly debate to be had, most of this
information makes a clear and solid case to be made for Domitian’s reign to be
when John wrote the Revelation whereas the early date really doesn’t have this
amount of evidence come close for it. We also see in the earliest iconographic
depictions of St. John, the son of Zebedee that they typically depict an
elderly man, which completely fits in with the timeline that all writers who
write about John and the Revelation establish happened. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">Next as a piece of evidence, I will bring up is that
this is so established in the vein of history and unattested in church history
and tradition that we have as soon as 150 CE, the non-canonical, likely from a
sect not counted Christians’ work <i>Acts of
John (Apocryphal)</i> where it also writes in its chapters 1-17 about John’s
Exile and Departure. Note that if John really did die, and he seems to have in
Ephesus in 100 CE during the reign of Trajan, this apocryphal work is written
only 50 years after. I will let the reader read it but in summary, it shares
some common things that were never contested by the church and historians of their
time such as that Domitian decided to persecute the Christians after he heavily
persecuted the Jews and then learned of St. John who was living in Ephesus and
then after they meet Domitian sends him off to be exiled after an incident
where John takes poison and lives and then revives someone who is given the
poison by Domitian. There is also a slave of Domitian that has a demon expelled
in this story. Domitian, astounded by this, sent John to Patmos where he
received the vision from God that led to his writing the Revelation<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftn12" name="_ftnref12" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[12]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. It ends by sharing John
came back in Nerva and Trajan’s reign, and before death, ordered Polycarp to be
bishop of Smyrna. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">One final thing to note is that Revelation never says
this persecution is worldwide. The history doesn’t support that either from the
patristics. The exile on Patmos seems to easily be part of the result of
localized government persecutions in Asia Minor. If it is, this serves to
explain how come John was even able to have his eventual return to Ephesus as
well since major persecution would likely have kept John from returning at all.
The fact of the matter is, though the date is debatable, no other book of the
New Testament is as clearly dated by the patristics of the Church as Revelation
is, nor is the place, origin, and date and earliest known history of something
so clearly and unanimously established as the Revelation is. Other than a need
to preserve theological commitments by some people developed centuries later,
there seems to be little to no good reason to doubt the dating of Revelation is
at a later date like the consensus of the Church claims. This is backed by
archaeology, established historical facts of the time, and Roman and now Church
historians all seemingly backing it up. It seems so very clear that we can give
valid and good argumentation for a late date of the Revelation being written.
Now we have two opposing forces like the non-Christian Roman historians and
Christian patristics all basically in agreement and corroborating together on
the history, this seems all the more to make the idea that those who lived
within the living memories of the apostles and those who were taught in the
areas that Revelation was composed, being they were some of the first to view
and cite the text as authoritative, would have all come to similar conjectures
without the knowledge or all colluded in a big lie as to when and where the
text was written? That this would have happened and that modern scholars who
live centuries after the fact, in other languages and cultures, being far
removed from any living memory of the apostles and their teachings would be
able to correct them and reliably reconstruct some “hidden truth” seems
patently absurd.</span></p><div>
<hr align="left" size="1" width="33%" />
<!--[endif]-->
<div id="ftn1">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"> Lyder Brun. Die romischen Kaiser
in der Apokalypse. ZNW26 (1927). 128-51. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn2">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"> L.L. Thompson. The Book of
Revelation. Apocalypse and Empire (Oxford 1990) page 14.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn3">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"> 1 Clement. Chapter 1. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn4">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftnref4" name="_ftn4" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"> A.T. Robinson. Epochs in the Life
of the Apostle John. (NY: Fleming H. Revell Co. 1935) p 28. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn5">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftnref5" name="_ftn5" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"> Irenaeus. Adv. Haer. 5.30-35.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn6">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftnref6" name="_ftn6" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"> Eusebius. Church History. Book 2.
Chapter 23; Origen. Against Celsus 1:47; Josephus. Antiquities 20.197-203.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn7">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftnref7" name="_ftn7" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"> Eusebius. Church History. Book 3.
Chapters 17-19. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn8">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftnref8" name="_ftn8" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[8]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"> Ibid. Chapters 19-20. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn9">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftnref9" name="_ftn9" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[9]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"> Ibid. Chapter 23.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn10">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftnref10" name="_ftn10" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[10]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"> Eusebius. Church History. Book 3.
Chapter 32-33.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn11">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftnref11" name="_ftn11" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[11]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"> Eusebius. Church History. Book V.
Chapter 23 and 24.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn12">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/2nd%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale%20(1).docx#_ftnref12" name="_ftn12" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="line-height: 107%;">[12]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"> Acts of John Chapters 1-17 (likely
150 CE).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div><p>---</p><p><b><u>Don's 2nd Negative:</u></b> </p><p></p><p class="MsoNormal">(All Caps for emphasis only)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I hope the reader has noticed
that Bale has not attempted– not one time– to exegete EVEN ONE BIBLE TEXT to
support his case. He has offered a possible parallel or two with Scripture and
history, BUT HE HAS NOT EXEGETED ONE TEXT! He patently respects external,
uninspired works- that he admits are
inconclusive and not definitive- more than Scripture. </p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="text-align: justify;">Bale objects to me citing his words from FaceBook,
claiming that I am violating the rules and that it is irrelevant. But it is not
irrelevant when it is discussing the dating and the evidence- or lack thereof
in Bale’s case. You will note that he did not– he could not– cite a rule that
says I am not supposed to use FB.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b>REVELATION- A BOOK OF JEWISH CHRISTIAN HOPE?</b> <b>AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT ISSUE</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">In my first negative I argued that the book of
Revelation is a preeminently Jewish book, about the imminent fulfillment of God’s
Old Covenant promises made to OC Israel. Briggs was correct to note: “It is
impossible to avoid the conclusion that the temple imagery in Revelation is
primarily for the benefit of believing Jews.... The Apocalypse then, is an
extremely Jewish book by dint of its temple imagery alone.” (Briggs, 1999,103). <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">This is supported by the fact that in Revelation 6,
the blood of the martyrs is at the base of the altar. THIS IS NO PAGAN ALTAR!
This is Jewish Temple imagery, strongly suggesting Jewish culpability for
shedding the blood of the martyrs. </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale ignored my citation of scholarship. Early on,
Bale ridiculed me for not citing “scholars.” But when I do, he ignores the
citations or rejects them outright. I guess only the scholars that he cites are
truly scholars.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale responded: “Don claims Revelation is a Jewish
book… this is a Christian writing.”</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Amazing! His rejection of this foundational Biblical
truth reveals how totally out of touch with the Biblical narrative he truly is!
How does the fact that Revelation is a Christian writing negate the fact that
it is focused on the fulfillment of God’s OC promises made to Old Covenant
Israel? All the first Christians were Jews, convinced the Jesus was the
fulfillment of their kingdom hope.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale says my claim that Revelation is about the
imminent fulfillment of God’s Old Covenant promises made to OC Israel is hotly
debated (in Bale’s view, my claim is to be rejected since it is hotly
contested!!), and “likely to be called heresy!” Let’s let the Bible– that Bale
essentially ignores– settle the issue:</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Peter said his doctrine of the “restoration of all
things” and the New Creation eschatological hope was found in “all the prophets
who have ever spoken... from Moses and Samuel onward” (Acts 3:19-24 / 2 Peter
3:1-2, 13).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Scholarship is virtually
united in positing Isaiah 65-66 as the source of both 2 Peter 3! And let’s not
forget: I asked Bale if the New Creation of Revelation 21 is the New Creation
foretold in Isaiah 65-66, and he said - after obfuscating a good bit-<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>THAT IT IS! Therefore, he defeated his own
claim that Revelation is not about the fulfillment of God’s OC promises made to
OC Israel!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Here is why this is so important and relevant.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b style="text-align: center;">The New Creation prophesied by Isaiah 65-66 is the
same New Creation anticipated by Revelation 21-22 (Bale agrees).</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b style="text-align: center;">But the New Creation of Isaiah 65-66 would arrive when
God destroyed OC Israel (Isaiah 65:13-17).</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b style="text-align: center;">Therefore, the New Creation of Isaiah 65-66 would
arrive when God destroyed OC Israel.</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">This is confirmed of course by the fact that the New
Creation of Revelation would come when the city “where the Lord was crucified”
was destroyed.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Paul said his eschatology was found in Moses, the Law
and the prophets (Acts 24:14f; 26:6f, 21f).</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Then, we have John, who cites, echoes, alludes to more
OT prophecies than any other NT book. He tells us that in the sounding of the
seventh trump, the mystery of God foretold by the prophets would be fulfilled
(10:7). What prophets did he have in mind? Well, as virtually all scholars
agree, he was anticipating the resurrection and the New Creation foretold in
Isaiah 25-27, 65-66, Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37, the book of Zechariah, etc..
These were THE OLD TESTAMENT PROMISES MADE TO OLD COVENANT ISRAEL!</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">The denial that Revelation was focused on the imminent
fulfillment of God’s OC promises made to OC Israel demands that Bale prove–
DEFINITIVELY- that John’s hope of the parousia, judgment, resurrection is
distinct from the Gospel taught by Peter and Paul. But Paul said that if ANYONE
taught a different Gospel from that which he taught, he was anathema. Thus, if
John’s eschatology was different from Paul’s, (which was undeniably from the
Tanakh), then Bale is accusing John of teaching a different gospel. And he is
himself teaching another Gospel.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Of course, Bale does not believe that Revelation is
about the imminent fulfillment of ANYTHING because he claims it is about the
destruction of Rome FOUR CENTURIES
REMOVED FROM JOHN’S “DO NOT SEAL THE VISION OF THIS BOOK, FOR THE TIME IS AT
HAND”. Sorry, “Behold, I come quickly”; “do not seal the vision of the book,
for the time is at hand,” does not equate to 400 years! That makes a mockery of
language.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b>ISAIAH 2-4 AND REVELATION 6</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale says: “Don claims Revelation 6 applies Isaiah 2-4
to it… Yet, nowhere does Revelation quote or directly cite Isaiah 2-4 in it.
Don is outright lying to his readers when he makes claims like this.”</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">See, once again, when Bale disagrees with me, I am “lying.”
This is an exhibition of either ignorance or arrogance- or both. </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">David Aune (<i>Word Biblical Commentary</i>, Vol. 52b,
Nashville, Nelson, 1998), 419, says Revelation 6 is a direct allusion to
Isaiah. Greg Beale, (Revelation,<i> New International Greek Testament
Commentary</i>, Carlisle, Pa; Paternoster, 1999), 400+- also says the text is
an allusion to Isaiah 2:19f and Hosea 10:8- the parallel text. In fact, FEW SCHOLARS DENY THE CONNECTION.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Isaiah 2:19f- predicted the last days Day of the Lord.
Men would run to the hills and hide in the caves, calling on the rocks “fall on
us.” Revelation cites the LXX VERBATIM in Revelation 6:16. Remember that in Luke 23:28f Jesus applied
Isaiah to the impending judgment of Jerusalem for killing him.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">This would also be when the Lord would avenge the
blood guilt of Jerusalem (4:4). Just as in Revelation 6:12f we have the
prediction of the last days Day of the Lord, when the Lord would avenge the
blood of the martyrs.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Remember also that in 2 Thessalonians 1, Paul likewise
quotes- verbatim- from Isaiah 2:19f to speak of the impending judgment on the
Jewish persecutors of the Thessalonians.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">According to Bale, John was ignoring Jesus and Paul’s
citation and application of Isaiah. He was not applying Isaiah to anything. He
is patently wrong. The fact that John
was anticipating the fulfillment of Isaiah 2-4 refutes Bale’s claim that
Revelation is not about the fulfillment of the Old Covenant promises.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b>WHEN DID DOMITIAN BEGIN PERSECUTING CHRISTIANS?</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">On 11-22-2021- I asked Bale the following:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">When (in what year) did Domitian supposedly initiate
his persecution of Christians?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">To put this another way, do you accept as fact the
citation from Eusebius that you gave, which indicates that the persecution
began in Domitian's 15th year, with the exile of Domitilla?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Is this your official position?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale responded: That seems a good and likely date since Eusebius
states it and gets his information from Hegesippus and Iranaeus primarily. My official position is that until we find more
evidence there is no conclusive or concrete evidence that definitively supports
the dating of Revelation to be early nor late date but all evidence we do have
seems to highly favor and support late date such as Eusebius sourcing two
people like Hegesippus and Iranaeus and stating Domitian did begin his
persecutions and terror in his 15th year.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Reader, Domitian only reigned for 15 years! Thus, if we
accept the “trustworthy” (per Bale) account of Eusebius, Hegesippus<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>and Iranaeus– HE DID NOT BEGIN TO PERSECUTE
THE CHURCH UNTIL THE LAST YEAR OF HIS REIGN. And, per his own sources, he
quickly abandoned that persecution! This means, by Bale’s own admission, that
Domitian’s “persecution” was very, very short lived!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">That contradicts the long history of persecution found
in Revelation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Babylon (Rome per Bale) had a long bloody history of
killing the OT prophets (ROME NEVER DID THIS! Period). Rome is not where the Lord was crucified. Even granting that Domitian “may” have persecuted some
isolated individual Christians, he still only did so for ONE YEAR– AT THE MOST! We are supposed to believe that one localized
persecution of “maybe” one year filled the measure of sin. As Robinson says: When this limited and selective purge, in which no
Christian was for certain put to death, is compared with the massacre of
Christians under Nero in what two early and independent witnesses speak of as ‘immense
multitudes’ it is astonishing that commentators should have been led by
Iranaeaus, who himself does not even mention a persecution, to prefer a
Domitianic context for the book of Revelation” (Redating, 233). </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">We are to also ignore what Jesus and Paul said about
Israel filling the measure of her sin, in the first century, for the killing of
the OT prophets, of Jesus, and Jesus’ apostles and prophets. And we are to
believe that Domitians’ ONE YEAR AT MOST had filled the measure of Rome’s
guilt. </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale’s view violates Revelation that says that the
Beast– Domitian, per Sergius– was to persecute for 3 ½ years. </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the
beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is
able to make war with him?” 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things
and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6
Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His
tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">So, according to Revelation, the Beast, ostensibly
Domitian, was to persecute the church for 3 ½ years. Yet, per Bale, Domitian
did not begin persecuting the church until THE VERY LAST YEAR OF HIS REIGN!
Sorry, Mr. Bale, that does not compute. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b>BALE’S EXAMPLES OF DOMITIANIC PERSECUTION</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">1. Antipas – It is amazing that Bale relies on a 10<sup>th</sup>
century source to try to prove the martyrdom of one person in (perhaps) AD 92.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale suggests that Antipas was killed for not
worshiping Domitian. A claim made MANY CENTURIES<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>LATER, that is highly questionable! He
conveniently ignores the fact that Catholic tradition says Antipas was slain by
Nero: (<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/(https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQg3alNbw9s)."><span class="SYSHYPERTEXT"><span style="color: black; mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha: 100.0%; mso-style-textfill-fill-color: black;"><span style="color: black; mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha: 100.0%; mso-style-textfill-fill-color: black;">https://www.yout<span style="color: black; mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha: 100.0%; mso-style-textfill-fill-color: black;">ube.com/watch?v=jQg3alNbw9s<span style="color: black; mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha: 100.0%; mso-style-textfill-fill-color: black;">).</span></span></span></span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale says we have : “No reason to doubt the Revelation’s
mention of Antipas’ martyrdom.”</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Folks, no one says Antipas was not a martyr! That is a
diversionary argument. The question is WHO KILLED HIM?</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="color: #222222;">Gary DeMar asked Francis Gumerlock,
noted patristic and Latin MSS expert about the evidence for</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="color: #222222;">Antipas being a Domitianic martyr.
Gumerlock responded: “In all of the Revelation commentaries that are extant
from [AD] 200-700, not one of them states that Antipas was martyred during the
reign of Domitian.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He states further: “The
only early commentary he could find that claimed that Antipas was martyred, “by
being roasted in a bronze bull in the tenth year of Domitian” was written by
Cornelius a Lapide, Jesuit of Flanders (1627). See DeMar’s excellent discussion
about Antipas here: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="color: #222222;">(https://americanvision.org/13916/fake-news-is-not-as-bad-as-the-fake-exegesis-and-fake-history-of-some-end-times-proponents/).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="color: #222222;">Many historians believe that the entire
story of Antipas and the bronze bull death was not historical. (Philip Schaff - William Milligan, “Revelation,” A Popular
Commentary on the New Testament, ed. Phillip Schaff, 4 vols. [Edinburgh:
T&T Clark, 1883], 4:385.). Thus, Bale appeals as “proof” to evidence that
would NEVER stand up in a court of evidentiary cross examination. </span>To say the very least, the testimony surrounding
Antipas is confused and far less than definitive.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b><span style="color: #222222;">Note</span></b><span style="color: #222222;">: By appealing to Antipas as a Domitianic martyr, Bale
falsifies his own claim that Domitian began persecuting the church in the last
year of his reign, AD 95.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">2 <b>DOMITILLA AND CLEMENS -HER HUSBAND.</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Some- Bale clearly-claim they were Christians. This is
not certain. (Briggs, Imagery, p. 34, n. 94/ 36, n. 36, strongly questions
whether they were Christians).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">We know that Domitian hated the Jews and persecuted
them.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Robinson proves that by the time of Domitian, the
distinction between Jews and Christians was an established “certainty” and
became so, “in the summer of 64. .... both Nero and Rome now clearly
distinguished between the religio licita and the new sect.” (Redating, 294).</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">So, since Domitilla and Clemens were “persecuted” for “Judaizing,”
IT WAS NOT FOR BEING CHRISTIANS, BUT ALMOST CERTAINLY FOR CONVERTING TO
JUDAISM. (Many scholars believe that Clemens was slain due to suspicion of
conspiracy against Domitian- <span style="color: #222222;"> (Briggs, <i>Imagery</i>, p. 34, n. 94)</span>.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="color: #222222;">Thus, Bale’s evidence for Domitianic
persecution of Christians beginning with Domitilla and Clemens is highly
dubious- at best.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="color: #222222;">2. </span><b style="color: #222222;">JUDE’S GRANDCHILDREN</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="color: #222222;">Bale appeals to Eusebius, Hegesippus and
Tertullian for this. It does not help!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="color: #222222;">According to Bale’s sources they were
not killed - OR EVEN EXILED.</span><span style="color: #222222;"> </span><span style="color: #222222;">THEY WERE
NOT PUNISHED AT ALL. They were brought before Domitian because they were of the
house of David, and preached the Davidic Kingdom. Domitian - a total paranoid
about political conspiracies- examined them, heard their message of a spiritual
- non-political kingdom (not of this world).</span><span style="color: #222222;">
</span><span style="color: #222222;">Eusebius and Hegesippus says they were immediately released.
Subsequently, great peace ruled in all the churches.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="color: #222222;">THEY WERE NOT CHARGED WITH BEING
CHRISTIANS! Domitian feared that they posed a political threat. When he
realized they posed no POLITICAL THREAT, he released them. He clearly was not
concerned about them being “Christians.” (Unlike 1 Peter 4:12f). IF THEY HAD
BEEN ARRESTED FOR RELIGIOUS REASONS, SINCE THEY ADMITTED TO THAT, HE WOULD NOT
HAVE RELEASED THEM.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="color: #222222;">Thus, another of Bale’s examples of supposed
“Christian persecution” by Domitian evaporates under close scrutiny.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">3. <b>SYMEON OF CLOPHAS</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b><i>Why does Bale spend so much time telling us of the
martyrdom of Symeon of Clophas when THAT MARTYRDOM WAS NOT UNDER DOMITIAN - but
under Trajan in the second century? In fact: </i></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">The date of the martyrdom of Symeon is quite
uncertain. It has been commonly ascribed (together with the martyrdom of
Ignatius) to the year 106 or 107, upon the authority of Eusebius' Chron., which
is supposed to connect these events with the ninth or tenth year of Trajan's
reign. But an examination of the passage in the Chron., where Eusebius groups
together these two events and the persecutions in Bithynia, shows that he did
not pretend to know the exact date of any of them, and simply put them together
as three similar events known to have occurred during the reign of Trajan (cf.
Lightfoot's Ignatius, II. p. 447 sqq.).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">(https://biblehub.com/library/pamphilius/church_history/chapter_xxxii_symeon_bishop_of_jerusalem.htm#1).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Thus, Bale produces totally irrelevant data in a
failed attempt to prove a Domitianic persecution. His “evidence” has NOTHING TO
DO WITH ANY PURPORTED DOMITIANIC PERSECUTION!</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">4. Bale relies heavily on the record of Eusebius to
document other martyrs. The problem is, as Candida Moss has documented, Between the death of Jesus around AD 30 CE and the
ascension of Constantine in 313, Christians died as a result of active measures
by the imperial government only 1 Immediately following the Great Fire of Rome
in 64, 2. Around 250, during the reign of Decius, ... (Candida Moss,<i> The
Myth of Persecution, How Early Christians Invented A Story of Persecution, </i>(New
York; Harper Collins, 2013), 129). </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Catch the power of this: Moss entirely omits any
mention of Domitian as a persecutor of the church! NOT A MENTION. In fact, Moss
argues that Eusebius’ martyr stories are mostly unhistorical fabrications for “political”
purposes. </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b>BALE AND CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA.</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale appeals to Clement who spoke of “the tyrant”- and
assumes that he referred to Domitian.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">1. Bale conveniently omits to mention that <i>Clement
said inspiration ended in the days of Nero: </i> “For the teaching of our Lord at his advent,
beginning with Augustus and Tiberius, was completed in the times of Tiberius.
And that of the apostles embracing the ministry of Paul, ends with Nero.”
(Miscellanies, Book 7:17- cited in Gentry, Before p. 68f, citing Stromata VII, 17, 106).</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">This claim agrees perfectly with my argument on the
cessation of inspiration by the time of the destruction of Jerusalem, the end
of the seventy weeks– which Bale simply scoffed at.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><i>2. </i>Bale
admits that both Nero and Domitian was called the tyrant. But he appeals to
Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD) to prove the focus was on Domitian. He
ignores the fact that Apollonius of Tyana (1-97 AD) says Nero was called a
Tyrant, guilty of crimes like no other. Apollonius himself was even imprisoned
by Domitian for political reasons, yet he never called him “the Tyrant!”
(https://digitalassets.lib.berkeley.edu/main/b20762583_B000213497.pdf).</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Keep in mind that Clement wrote over 100+ years after
Apollonius, who was “on the scene” unlike Clement.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Gentry gives additional quotes from the 1<sup>st</sup>
- 4<sup>th</sup> century of both Roman and Christian historians who called Nero
the Tyrant. If- a strong IF- Domitian did persecute the church he was a faint
image of Nero, not fitting the description of Revelation. Nero persecuted
thousands, for years. Domitian MAY have persecuted a few at most, for AT MOST,
ONE YEAR!</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">4.) Robinson notes that “few doubt that the primary
reference of ‘the beast’ in Revelation (13) is to Nero.” (Redating, 236).</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b>BALE AND THE DATE OF 1 PETER</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">I CITED ROBINSON WHO POSITED 1 PETER IN AD 65 ( Bale
ignored Robinson).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">1 Peter SAYS it was written by Peter. PETER DIED
BEFORE AD 70. Bale denies that Peter wrote the epistle, which is an overt
denial of what the book says. This denial is essential for Bale’s position.
Ponder the fact that HIS ENTIRE POSITION HINGES ON PROVING THAT 1 PETER IS A
FALSE PRODUCTION BY A PRETENDER! At the very least, it was written by
Stephanus, Peter’s secretary. But that still demands that Peter dictated the
epistle before AD 70– falsifying Bale’s claims.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale wrote 250 words telling us that Revelation may
have also been a fabrication– not written by John, and thus, not inspired. Now,
he tells us that Peter did not write 1 Peter! Bale seems to have no problem
believing that Peter (and Revelation) are fabrications- FALSE books!</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Robinson examines the idea that 1 Peter is a fictive
pseudonymous production and says out of the other epistles, it is the least
likely to be false. He cites Harnack, who rejected the apostolic authorship and
yet, (in a massive contradiction) said that the claim that Peter was
pseudonymous was burdened down with “insurmountable” problems. (Robinson,
Redating, 163).</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale desperately wants (MUST) deny any relationship
between 1 Peter and Revelation. Let me repeat my argument– which he tried to
dismiss by his appeal to the fictive nature of 1 Peter:</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">1 Peter was written to the saints in Asia (1 Peter
1:1f); as was Revelation.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">The saints were being persecuted (1 Peter 1:5f;
4:11-12), just as in Revelation.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Notice that Peter urged his audience: “Sanctify Christ
as Lord in your hearts and be ready always to give an ANSWER (from apologia–
meaning a legal, courtroom style defense) for the hope that lies within you.”
We thus have early documentation of Christians being “tried” as Christians –
matching the Neronian situation perfectly– but not any situation under
Domitian.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Their persecution, was “filling up the measure of
suffering / sin (1 Peter 5:10- <i>epiteleo</i>). This is directly parallel to
Revelation 6:9-11 / 17:6f. It is likewise in perfect harmony with Jesus and
Paul who said (Matthew 23 –>1 Thessalonians 2:15-16) that it was Israel that
would fill up of the measure of sin through persecution in the first century.
Bale says these connections can be dismissed because they don’t mention the
dating of Revelation. That is total smoke- and false. If the filling up of the
measure of sin - by Israel- in Matthew 23 and 1 Thessalonians 2 is the same as
in Revelation, (and it is since Babylon was the city guilty of killing the
Lord) - then since both Matthew 23 and Thessalonians are dealing with first
century, Old Covenant Israel prior to AD 70– not Rome- that proves that
Revelation was written prior to AD 70.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Peter promised the saints they would only have to
endure persecution for a short time (1 Peter 1:5f 4:5, 7, 17), just as the
Spirit told the Revelation martyrs that their vindication would be “in a little
while” (Revelation 6:9f).</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">In Revelation 3:10 Jesus promised the Philadelphia
saints: “I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the
whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” The persecution was
literally “about to come” (mellouses– from mello in the infinitive). The
Blass-DeBrunner Greek Grammar says: “mellein with the infinitive expresses
imminence” (Blass-DeBrunner,<i> A Greek
Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, </i>(Chicago,
University of Chicago Press, 1961), 181).</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">So, we have an already present Asian persecution, but
we have a “fiery trial” of persecution that was “ABOUT TO COME.” Then, in an
epistle written in AD 65– well before Domitian- we find Peter saying: “think it
not strange concerning the fiery trial THAT IS AMONG YOU.” The Greek of the
text is “The fiery trial that is (present tense) among you (<i>en humin</i>).”
It is not a future tense.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">John, writing to the Asian saints said a time of trial
(persecution) was about to come. Peter, writing to the Asian saints, said the
fiery trial WAS AMONG THEM. They were not to think that trial strange. WHY? The
logical answer is that John in Revelation had told them it was about to come,
AND NOW IT WAS AMONG THEM! Revelation was clearly written before Peter.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale must prove that Revelation and 1 Peter are
speaking of two totally different Asian persecutions, both of which were present
but about to imminently get worse, and,
both of which were to consummately fill the measure of sin and suffering! And
relief from both persecution would be at the coming soon parousia of Christ– “Behold,
I come quickly.” If he cannot prove this- he did not try - his position falls. </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">If Peter wrote 1 Peter, (he did) then since he was
writing to the same people as John, about the same issue, persecution of the
saints, and made the same promises as John (imminent relief at the parousia),
then since John FORETOLD what Peter said was then present, this demands that
Revelation- was written before AD 70.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Unbelievably, Bale says all of this is irrelevant to
our discussion! Wrong. It is critical and Bale knows it.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">The good Dr. needs to tell us, very clearly (I predict
silence, insults or diversion): DID THE APOSTLE PETER PEN THE EPISTLE OF 1 PETER? YES
OR NO?</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b>DEATH VERSUS EXILE?</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">Bale says his purpose was not to prove that Nero did
not exile people, killing them instead, versus Domitian who did exile his
enemies. Yet, he says his point is that John was in exile, supposedly pointing
to persecution by Domitian. Double talk. He typed a bunch of words trying to
establish that very claim.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="text-align: right;">Bale’s own words: “Nero preferred execution and that exile was a bit of
a rarity, which he would usually have executed later.” He told us, “You rarely
find exile takes place in Tacitus’ works with Nero in contrast to his amount of
murder and executions.” What did he say of Domitian? “Pliny the Younger in his </span><i style="text-align: right;">Letters</i><span style="text-align: right;">,
where he notes in Book 3, Letters 9 and 11 of Domitian’s cruel acts and his
tendency to exile like he did in the case of 89 CE where he tried to have
banished all philosophers from Rome.” Bale denies his own words. The fact is
that we have record from Tacitus of Nero exiling many </span>people during the Pisonian conspiracy: (https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Tacitus/Annals/15C*.html). Note how Tacitus refutes Bale.</p><p align="right" class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<b>THE ACTS OF JOHN<br /></b>Amazingly, Bale appeals to the mid-second century Acts of John, a fantasmagoric production that Bale admits was “from a sect not counted Christians,” and indeed was deemed heretical by the Nicean Council as Docetic and Gnostic. The stories in The Acts of John can scarcely be believed (John prayed for bedbugs to leave his “hotel” room for the night, they did, and when he left, he allowed them to return!) To see just how strange the Acts of John truly is: <a href="https://biblewise.com/bible_study/apocrypha/acts-john.php.">https://biblewise.com/bible_study/apocrypha/acts-john.php.</a> Bale’s reliance on such a strange work exposes his desperation. Argumentum ad desperatum!<div><br /></div><div><b>THE IRANAEAN EVIDENCE <br /></b><br />Bale claims that the evidence from Iranaeus is powerful and should be convincing: <br /><br /></div><div>Irenaeus says quite clearly in his writings that “…were it necessary that his [the Antichrist] name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign”<a ftn1="" href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Rev-D-Preston" nd="" neg="" rtf="" s="">1</a>. <br /><br /></div><div>Bale says: “The date of the composition of the text was non-controversial. That it was being cited authoritatively in the mid-2nd Century also implies a date of composition at the end of the first century. We also don’t find church historian Eusebius taking issue or even discussing anything of the sort about it being in some form of dispute either.” He claims: “it has really only been in recent times that the date has been called into question by proponents of certain eschatological schemes (primarily forms of preterism) which all originate from Calvinist theological circles.” <br /><br /></div><div>First, no one disputes the dating of the Iranaean quote. That is a straw man. <br /><br /></div><div>Bale’s claim that only Calvinist preterists have somewhat recently disputed the meaning of the quote is false. It is pejorative and unscholarly. Dean Furlong who has “never been a preterist” challenges the interpretation of the Iranaean quote. (Dean Furlong, “The Problematic Use of External Sources,” PDF). I was personally raised as a fifth generation Amillennialist, and have never been a Calvinist. <br /><br /></div><div>Gentry catalogs the names of MANY noted scholastics– non-preterists- who challenge the idea that Iranaeaus was saying the Apocalypse was seen in the time of Domitian. (Gentry, Before, 45++).</div><div><br />Furthermore, the context of the citation lends itself to an understanding that Iranaeus was saying that if the identity of the Man of Sin were necessary, then JOHN, who was seen almost in Iranaeus’ day, could have made it known. To say that the identity of 666 would have been settled by knowing that the Apocalyse was written “almost in our day” is illogical. It was the existence of the Apocalypse itself- well known in Iranaeus’ day, that was creating the controversy. When one understands, as a growing number of scholars are admitting, that Iranaeus was saying that if it was necessary to understand the identity of 666 then John, who was seen not long ago, could have settled the issue! <br /><br /></div><div>Saying that knowing that “the Apocalypse was written not long ago,” would not settle the issue of the identity of 666. Revelation, for however long it had existed, had generated the controversy of that identity. But, if John were still alive, HE COULD HAVE SETTLED THE ISSUE.</div><div><br /></div><div>Thus, in the words of John Behr, one of the world’s top Iranaean scholars, “things are not necessarily as they seem at first sight” referring to the view espoused by Bale. Behr says, “It is almost certain that the subject of the passive verb ‘was seen’ is John himself rather than the apocalytic vision.” (John Behr, The Theologian and His Paschal Gospel, Oxford University Press, 2019). 68). <br /><br /></div><div>Behr is not a preterist. He is an Orthodox Priest. Incidentally, he cites, with approval, the “convincing argument” offered by Dean Furlong in his “John the Evangelist” work. <br /><br /></div><div>Bale has built his case on sand. His claim that the Iranaean testimony is clear, turns out to be his own subjective personal opinion. <br /><br /><b>PERGAMUM AND SMYRNA <br /></b><br /></div><div>Please note that NOT ONCE did Bale produce a quote from inscriptions in these cities, and not a word in the Biblical texts, about any Domitianic persecution. NOT ONE WORD! Yet, Ephesus, Pergamum and Smyrna were supposedly the epicenter of Domitianic persecution– per Bale. <br /><br />Behr says that the inscriptions- that Bale appeals to– show that while Domitian was, “central to the cult,” “With respect to the divinization of the emperor, however, the language of the dedications does not deviate from the normal practice in the provincial cults. The use of theos in reference to a living emperor was not unusual in Asia at this time. Thus, there is no suggestion of extraordinary cultic honors for Domitian or for any other imperial figure in this inscription.” (John the Theologian, 70). Bale has clearly mishandled the evidence. <br /><br />If Ephesus, Pergamum and Smyrna were the center of the Domitianic worship as Bale claims, we should by all means find direct, definitive testimony to that. It is not a question of persecution in other areas, it is a question of persecution in the areas that Bale insists were the center of that worship. Yet, all we find is TOTAL SILENCE in the Biblical record concerning such a persecution. <br /><br /></div><div>Now, Bale tries to negate the Neronian persecution since it, “has not been shown to be widespread.” Yet he admits that Revelation- supposedly about Domitian’s persecution– was not widespread! This flatly contradicts Revelation 3:10 where Jesus said that the fiery trial of persecution was about to come “on the whole world” (tes oikoumene- the inhabited world). Bale denies this text.</div><div><br /></div><div>We can summarize Bale’s entire affirmative by citing his own words. He admits:<br /><br />“Obviously none of what I offer here makes it 100%, without a doubt, definitive or conclusive that the Revelation was written in the reign of Domitian.” <br /><br />“There is nothing conclusive nor definitive to prove irrefutably that the Revelation is written early nor late date. We simply do not know what year it was written beyond that it was written in the first century. Beyond that, it is simply a matter of making solid but educated guesses and hoping we find some more evidences later to show the truth of this matter.” <br /><br /></div><div>“My official position is that until we find more evidence there is no conclusive or concrete evidence that definitively supports the dating of Revelation to be early nor late date but all evidence we do have seems to highly favor and support late date such as Eusebius sourcing two people like Hegesippus and Iranaeus and stating Domitian did begin his persecutions and terror in his 15th year.” <br /><br /></div><div>(DKP– be sure to read my comments on this above). <br /><br /></div><div>So, reader, while Bale admits, repeatedly, that he has not given any definitive, conclusive evidence, he wants to convince you that I am a false teacher (liar) for taking the early dating of Revelation! <br /><br /></div><div><b>REVELATION AND THE EMPERORS</b></div><div>Revelation speaks of the emperors of Rome, and says: “There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.”</div><div><br /></div><div>According to the ancient sources closest to the first century Roman situation, (with the exception of Tacitus) they all say - definitively - that Julius was the first emperor. This included Josephus, Suetonius, Dio Cassius, The Sybylline Oracles (5:12) and 2 Esdras 12:15. They all list Julius as the first emperor. (See Robinson, Redating, 243f / also www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Lists%20of%20Roman%20Emperors.htm). <br /><br /></div><div>Gentry adds the Epistle of Barnabas (late first century, maybe even pre-AD 70), and the testimony of the second century writer praised by Eusebius, Theophilus of Antioch, who said that the list of Roman emperors began with Julius. (Gentry, Beast, 107). <br /><br /></div><div>The list of emperors therefore is: #1 - Julius, #2 - Augustus, #3 - Tiberius, #4 - Caligula, #5 -Claudius–> #6 - NERO- THE ONE “WHO IS” WHEN JOHN WROTE. <br /><br /></div><div>Do the math: Five are fallen– Julius through Claudius. ONE IS- WHICH MEANS REVELATION WAS WRITTEN UNDER NERO. THIS DEFINITIVELY REFUTES BALE’S SPECULATIONS AND HIS ESCHATOLOGY. <br /><br /></div><div>There is no good reason whatsoever to reject this countdown unless one has a theological predisposition and a “pet doctrine” to defend. <br /><br /></div><div>Finally, look again at my argument (among many) that Bale totally ignored– and for good reason.</div><div><b style="text-align: center;"><br /></b></div><div><b style="text-align: center;">Revelation is about the imminent- to John- judgment of
Babylon. </b><b style="text-align: center;">Babylon is “where the Lord was crucified”- (Revelation
11:8). </b><b style="text-align: center;">Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem– NOT ROME. </b><b style="text-align: center;">Therefore, Babylon of Revelation was Jerusalem. </b></div><div><span style="text-align: justify;">I have answered- in sharp contrast with Bale -</span><span style="text-align: justify;"> </span><span style="text-align: justify;">every major point offered by Bale and
demonstrated his misuse of the evidence, his false claims, his logical
fallacies and his misrepresentations.</span></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">He denies the
undeniable: Revelation is focused on the imminent fulfillment of God’s OC
promises made to OC Israel.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">He tries to build a case by denying the
authorship and dating of both Revelation and Peter, thereby affirming that
these are fictive (false) productions of someone beside the apostles.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">He appeals to cases
of “persecution” that were not actually persecution for being Christians.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">He appeals to
evidence written literally centuries after the fact, evidence that many
scholars say is totally fictive.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">He appeals to a
phantasmagoric– fictional- work for evidence.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">He anachronistically
appeals to “persecution” that took place under Trajan almost two decades after
Domitian.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">He claims that the
Iranaean testimony is trustworthy, and yet, top Iranaean scholars tell us that
Bale’s view is not supported by the Iranaean citation.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">He tells us of
Smyrna, Pergamum and Ephesus being centers of Domitianic persecution, yet gives
us NOT ONE SINGLE WORD FROM SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THIS WAS TRUE! Even his own “historical
evidence” is - by his own admission, “inconclusive.”</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;">His proposition fails.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="mso-element: footnote-list;">
<!--[endif]-->
<div id="ftn1" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Rev-D-Preston's%202nd%20Neg%20(1).rtf#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><sup>1</sup></a>
Irenaeus. Adv. Haer. 5.30-35.</p></div></div><p></p></div>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-27835798797021445682021-12-10T19:46:00.003-08:002021-12-10T20:59:28.339-08:00Debating Don Preston: My 1st Affirmative & Preston's 1st Negative<p>This begins my affirmative and Don's negatives. </p><p><b><u>My 1st Affirmative: </u></b></p><div style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-element: para-border-div; padding: 0in 0in 1pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">In the second part of
this debate against Don K Preston, I, Sergius Bale, am to debate that, while
not definitive, the book of Revelation was likely written in the reign of
Emperor Domitian (90s CE) after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE and explain why.
In my first affirmative for this debate, I will begin by discussing what we
have as available evidence to assist us in this endeavor of dating the
Revelation. We will cover some archaeology and Roman historians here in the
first affirmative. As has been aptly shown in the first part of this debate by
Preston, the Revelation itself does not give us any inclination internally as
to which emperor’s reign it is written under. One cannot determine from the
text itself to give any conclusive or definitive fact about the reign it is
written under. This applies to the reign of Nero as much as it does Galba,
Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus, Domitian, Nerva, and Trajan. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">Archaeological
Findings<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">Our oldest manuscripts
and fragments of Revelation are as I write this: Papyrus Fragments P18 (200-400
CE), P47 (200-300 CE), P98 (150-250 CE), and P115 (275-400 CE) (which I will
note is a rare variant found in Egypt that says 616 instead of 666). New pieces
of history, historical data, papyrus fragments, scrolls, etc. are being
discovered every year. It may very well be confirmed one day that we ultimately
do find ourselves in possession of a papyrus fragment that is found in one of
these emperor’s reigns such as Nero and will thus be able to settle this debate
one day, making it conclusive but until then one cannot conclusively do so and
it is certainly not a settled matter. While we cannot make a conclusive
statement, this does not mean we cannot use what evidence we have at our
disposal and make an educated guess and form a hypothesis about the dating of
the Revelation of St. John and what reign he wrote it in with what we do
possess. With the fragments we possess of Revelation, our oldest papyrus P98
fragment is an existing fragment from the reign of Antonius Pius and that is as
far back with carbon dating that we can date the surviving texts of Revelation
itself. Until new manuscripts or fragments are discovered there simply is no
text that comes before this, so roughly we have around 150-200 CE, the text
definitively exists without need of a claimant of the text. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">Roman
Historians and the Revelation<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">Moving on from the
archaeological findings, we find historically that Christian persecution was
largely in focus from Rome itself and from Jewish synagogues that were both in
opposition to the sect. This leaves us roughly with a timeline between Nero, Galba,
Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus, Domitian, Nerva, and Trajan’s reigns as
emperor to go off from. Historians of the time only find the recording of Christian
persecutions for the reigns of Nero, Vespasian, and Domitian. Unless new
history is discovered, we can probably exclude Galba, Otho, and Vitellus’
reigns as one finds nothing in recorded history about Christian persecution
having happened in these reigns. We can also pretty safely exclude Titus’ imperial
reign as there is no recorded history of him having dealt with or persecuted
Christians during his reign as emperor from 79-81 CE, though it should be noted
that we do have through Tacitus’ (56-120 CE) <i>Fragments </i>that Titus as general under Vespasian’s reign as the emperor
did hold a council to deliberate over saving or destroying the temple at
Jerusalem, ultimately deciding it was of prime necessity to do so <i>“to wipe out more completely the religion of
the Jews and the Christians; for they urged that these religions, although
hostile to each other, nevertheless sprang from the same sources; the
Christians had grown out of the Jews: if the root were destroyed, the stock
would easily perish”</i><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. This was as a General so it
can be excluded as it is not under his reign. Besides the Fragments of Tacitus,
there is not much else for persecution under Vespasian’s reign as emperor
though we cannot conclusively rule it out as the hatred for the Abrahamic religions
does seem to be there, albeit very small. After Domitian’s reign, there is
nothing of note that really happens in Nerva’s reign but we do find under
Trajan’s reign he does have correspondence with Pliny over what to do with some
Christians. Either way, the historical evidence-based off on Roman historians
and the Christian witness leads most historians to strongly favor Nero and
Domitian’s reigns for the dating. Which one does history favor to have led the
persecution against the Church in the province of Asia Minor though? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">While Dio Cassius has
nothing to mention about Christians or Nero in his telling of Roman history,
Suetonius (69-122 CE) does speak on Nero’s reign and says that </span><i style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">“During his reign, many cases of abuse were
severely punished and put down, and no fewer new laws were made: a limit
was set to expenditures; the public banquets were confined to the distribution
of food; the sale of any kind of cooked viands in the taverns was forbidden,
with the exception of pulse and vegetables, whereas before every sort of dainty
was exposed for sale. <a name="16.2.2"></a>Punishment was inflicted on the
Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition. <a name="16.2.3"></a>He put an end to the diversions of the chariot drivers, who
from immunity of long standing claimed the right of ranging at large and
amusing themselves by cheating and robbing the people. <a name="16.2.4"></a>The
pantomimic actors and their partisans were banished from the city.</i><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[2]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;"> He makes clear that Nero
became extremely paranoid and superstitious about his own death happening after
a comet appeared for several successive nights (around 64 CE) and Nero had
consulted with an astrologer Balbillus and learned from him that to avert
assassination, kings usually had some distinguished men executed (a
superstition). From this point on in his emperorship, he condemned many to
death and those he did banish, rarely, usually were eventually executed as
well. Suetonius says after his having Piso of Rome slaughtered he would rarely
spare even children. If they were not just put together to be slain along with
their preceptors and attendants they were banished but he usually just had
everyone executed. After 64 CE, Nero is said by Suetonius to have anyone he desired
to be killed that he thought would oppose him.</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[3]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;"> The historian Suetonius
speaks kindly about Nero’s early years but then shows his deep dive into
madness, evil, and debauchery and makes very clear Nero preferred execution and
that exile was a bit of a rarity, which he would usually have executed later
like he had done to his own mother and various others simply due to massive
paranoia of letting his opposition live. In no instance like that of Domitian’s
reign does Nero ever get noted by the historian of calling himself Lord and/or
God in any way beyond him having the Emperor’s Genius be worshipped by the
Imperial Cult as all emperors of Rome did. We must note that the Genius of the
Emperor is not the same as the Emperor. Nero did not deify himself while alive
though he did liken himself to be like the gods Apollo and Sol, son of Zeus in
the pantheon.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">Tacitus (56-120 CE) seems
to agree with Suetonius’ history in his <i>Annals.</i>
You rarely find exile takes place in Tacitus’ works with Nero in contrast to
his amount of murder and executions. While he could have certainly had a moment
where he spared John and had him be exiled to Patmos, we know that from
Christian history and tradition that Nero seems to have had Peter and Paul both
killed; Paul by beheading for being a Roman citizen and Peter crucified upside
down. In Book 15, Chapter 34 Tacitus mentions the persecution that took place
on Christians. To quell the rumor that he had caused the Great Fire of Rome, <i>“Nero substituted as culprits and punished
with the utmost refinements of cruelty, a class of men, loathed for their
vices, whom the crowd styled Christians. Christ, the founder of the
name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of
the procurator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was
checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judaea, the
home of the disease, but in the capital itself, where all things horrible or
shameful in the world collect and find a vogue. First, then, the confessed
members of the sect were arrested; next, on their disclosures,
vast numbers were convicted, not so much on the count of arson as for
hatred of the human race. And derision accompanied their end: they were
covered with wild beasts' skins and torn to death by dogs, or they were
fastened on crosses, and, when daylight failed were burned to serve as lamps by
night. Nero had offered his Gardens for the spectacle, and gave an exhibition
in his Circus, mixing with the crowd in the habit of a charioteer, or mounted
on his car. Hence, despite a pang of guilt which had earned the most exemplary
punishment, there arose a sentiment of pity, due to the impression that they
were being sacrificed not for the welfare of the state but to the ferocity of a
single man</i><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>.
Though plausible, it seems unlikely that John the Apostle would have been
spared in this persecution in Rome by Nero. It also seems to be that this
persecution was local and only in the capital of Rome itself and did not reach
Asia Minor’s province. While he did some rare exiles at the time, Nero usually
reserved exile for family and had them executed later due to his paranoia. For
a Jew like John with no human rights in consideration, he would be counted as
non-persona by Rome. Though a plausible theory, with Peter and Paul in mind, it
seems rather unlikely that Nero would bother to spare a Christian and send him
off to the salt mines of Patmos under an exile when he could use them as
scapegoats for the Great Fire of 64 instead.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">Tacitus writes that Nero
continued the same practice as others before him of not being worshipped until
he had ceased to live and move among men. In the Cultus of the Imperator, you
as a Roman citizen did have to worship the “genius” of the emperor and this
certainly would have caused conflict with Christians and Rome and its Imperial
Cults. Jews were the only ones exempt from having to do this worship to the
emperor and as we saw earlier, the Christians were known of by Rome at the time
as a sect of Judaism but may have been seen as not being exempt, especially the
Gentile believers because they were not Jews at all. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">The “genius” of the
emperor is different from the emperor himself and I will note that again here.
Tacitus finds <i>“in the records of the
senate that Anicius Cerialis, consul designate, gave it as his opinion that a
temple should be built to Nero as the Divine, as early as possible and out of
public funds. His motion, it is true, merely implied that the prince had
transcended mortal eminence and earned the worship of mankind; but it was
vetoed by that prince [Nero], because by other interpreters it might be wrested
into an omen of, and aspiration for, his decease; for the honor of divine is
not paid to the emperor until he has ceased to live and move among men”</i><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn5" name="_ftnref5" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. We also do not see it
written anywhere of persecution that was anywhere under Nero except for
persecution being localized to the capital of Rome itself. Could people under
Nero’s reign in Asia Minor have been persecuted? It is possible but we know from
the historical record that the imperial cult of Nero himself was non-existent
there, at least as far as a dedicated neokorate being established to him.
Nero’s closest potential for a neokorate was the unfinished one he had begun
building for his predecessor Claudius but besides that, if there were any
Imperial worship of Nero in Asia Minor, the persecution on the people of Asia
Minor was never recorded anywhere in the history books like it is recorded in
the capital of the Roman Empire by Tacitus and others. In Book 2, Chapter 8 of <i>Histories</i> we do find after Nero’s death
in 68 CE, in Achaia and Asia that the Nero Redivivus legend was strong and was widespread
as a belief that Nero would return and retake Rome. It is well documented that
many people there imagined he was still alive and there are multiple documentations
of people who have tried to pretend to be him and cause rebellions all over
Rome<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn6" name="_ftnref6" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. It makes it possible but
unlikely that Nero’s reign was the one Revelation was written in. There is also
little to no support from patristics about Nero’s reign being the one John
wrote his Revelation under. It is also very plausible the Church saw Domitian
instead as a second Nero. Nero was still deeply embedded in the memory of all
Roman people and the people saw Domitian more or less like he who was quite
similar in many ways. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">Dio Cassius never records
a word about Nero declaring himself a deity while living nor establishing a
neokorate to dedicate to himself in Asia Minor, in <i>Roman History, Epitome 67</i> but he does write that Domitian put many
men out of the way on many different pretexts, some by murder and many others
by banishment<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn7" name="_ftnref7" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>.
This agrees with Pliny the Younger in his <i>Letters</i>,
where he notes in Book 3, Letters 9 and 11 of Domitian’s cruel acts and his
tendency to exile like he did in the case of 89 CE where he tried to have
banished all philosophers from Rome<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn8" name="_ftnref8" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[8]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. One should note that
Christianity was enough of a presence by Trajan’s time that Pliny the Younger,
Governor of Bithynia and Pontus, is writing to ask what to do about Christians
in legal examinations around 112 CE, which is a province right next to Asia
Minor, something not seen in the historical record until this time whereas
earlier Christians were mostly treated as Jews and thus non-persona unless they
had Roman citizenship or were non-Jew<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn9" name="_ftnref9" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[9]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. Pliny does not speak
highly of Domitian’s terrible regime but when he questions if he is correct to
do to Christians on trial as was done in the past since he has never tried one
before until now, Trajan replies that he is correct in his ways and judgments<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn10" name="_ftnref10" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[10]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. If Imperial Worship was
going on in this manner with Domitian’s reign, Revelation 13’s mentions of the
worship of the beast’s image potentially bear an uncanny resemblance to this. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">Dio Cassius notes that Domitian
famously when elected consul for ten years and censor for life, employed twenty-four
lectors (or chanters/singers) who would follow him day and night and sing songs
of praise and worship to him. He kept these singers even after he became
emperor and would make everyone wear a triumphal white garb whenever he would
enter the senate-house insisting “upon being regarded as a god and took vast
pride in being called ‘Lord’ and ‘God’” in both speech and written documents<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn11" name="_ftnref11" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[11]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. Domitian had the
entirety of Rome as far as he could fill it with his image constructed of
silver and gold so that people could worship him anywhere. He would give
expensive spectacles and celebrations and contests and put on what would be
known as the Domitian Games. He would force everyone to dress in white robes
and Dio Cassius says that if there were a heavy rain or violent storm to come,
it was against the law for anyone other than him to change clothes or leave.
Even “though he changed his clothing to thick wool cloaks, he would not allow
the others to change their attire, so that not a few fell sick and
died”. These could last all day and all night and it would be as long as
Domitian desired.<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn12" name="_ftnref12" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[12]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. He notably banished
Caecilius Rufinus from the senate and all philosophers from Rome. One man named
Juventus Celsus it is noted was famously spared when the man who had conspired
against Domitian begged to speak to him and repeatedly called him “master” and
“god” and would be a spy and report all things for him from now on (to which he
famously never reported anyone)<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn13" name="_ftnref13" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[13]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. Revelation 13 again
shows and bears a lot of similarities here. Pliny even records that Domitian
was “the Beast of the Sea, whose teeth drip with the blood of good Romans”. At
least in Ephesus where there was a new port installed by Domitian’s
city-building tendencies, a citizen would be required to swear their allegiance
and worship to this “Divine Emperor”. After offering incense (possibly at a
location like the Flavian temple), you were given a stamp or mark that allowed
you to engage in local commerce. Without this and without the proper coinage,
you could not buy or sell in either of the Ephesian agoras. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">Domitian was so hated,
that when he was assassinated, Emperor Nerva would have all his images and
statues melted down and arches built to Domitian torn down. Nerva is said to
have restored those in exile and banished as well and you were not allowed any longer
to accuse anyone of maiestas or of adopting the Jewish mode of life because it
had been such a problem with Domitian doing so to others<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn14" name="_ftnref14" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[14]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. Pliny confirms this when
In Panegyricus (33.4), he writes a tribute to Emperor Trajan saying: <i>He [Domitian] was a madman, blind to the
true meaning of his position, who used the arena for collecting charges of high
treason, who felt himself slighted and scorned if we failed to pay homage to
his gladiators, taking any criticism of them to himself and seeing insults to
his own godhead and divinity; who deemed himself the equal of the gods yet
raised his gladiators to his equal</i>. Obviously, Christians in Ephesus and
the surrounding area who were forced to participate in the Domitian Games would
have objected to the Emperor and his worship if this is to be believed. Of note,
however, we must note that the poet Statius in Silvae 1.6:83–84 does claim that
Domitian rejected the titles. However, the majority consensus of historians at
the time seems to suggest that Domitian did claim deity while living. We also
must note that the poet Martial of the first century confirms Domitian to be
“Lord” and calls him the “Thunderer”, a title that solely belongs to the god
Jupiter (Zeus). Often in Martial’s writings, he calls Domitian “lord” and “lord
and god” and interestingly, one should note that after Domitian’s death he
repudiates these titles given to Domitian. Domitian did declare himself deity
in life, something Nero never did. It is also shown evident by the fact that
Emperor Nerva and Trajan afterward did as much as they could through damnatio
memoriae to erase the many images and statues he had built for himself. Try as
they could, the Ephesians still kept the Temple of Sebastoi standing
(Domitian’s neokorate to himself and the Flavian Dynasty) and many coinages
still survive which show Domitian’s claim to the deity while living such as
these</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> I will share below: Of particular
note, we have coinages minted by Domitian with the image of the seven stars,
something we also find in Revelation (1:16, 20; 2:1, 28; 3:1, 22:16) which, in
the context of coinages and Revelation reflects an emperor worship imagery.
Though not definitive, the usage of stars in Revelation does match up quite
nicely with Roman imperial imagery in Domitian’s day and stars were in the
first century associated with deified members of the imperial family. This coin
is minted in 83 CE. Minted on it are pieces of evidence of Domitian’s claim to
deity such as the bust of his wife Domitia and the inscription DIVI CAESAR MATRI
and DIVI CAESARIS MATER, mother of Divine Caesar. On the reverse side is
Domitian’s infant son who is depicted as DIVUS CAESARIMP DOMITIANIF, meaning,
“the divine Caesar, son of Emperor Domitian. He is depicted as the baby of
Jupiter (Zeus), who is head of the Roman pantheon. The globe he sits upon
represents world dominion and ultimate power while the stars represent the
divine nature of those they accompany. This son is depicted as the conqueror of
the entire world and is the son of Jupiter (Zeus). If he is Domitian’s son, and
he is a deity and a “son of God” then Domitian is pretty obviously claiming
divinity here through his coinages. One cannot help but think in this debate
about how Christ, the Son of God (Rev 2:18), in the Revelation is the one depicted
holding in His right hand seven stars (Rev. 1:13, 16) and how a Christian would
have to use these coinages from Domitian to do trade in Asia Minor where
especially in Ephesus they may even have to directly defy Domitian himself.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhLQ-m2s-rcezbz2zcXjlAPG0h2wuR3sOPFIcQIbrTprUV_3cybOSCwdBEZUaBCLKs-223AOhQ4lTLMtXDUbiF9-6idKnGf4UdsIRIxxGodCmGhQn7MbljQ5jApNCnLKb2P7u9xW27BJR224tvUxYJmjNwga3H5QrY4HLZBbpTAH0e6oo-2el42xnXX=s323" imageanchor="1" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="156" data-original-width="323" height="155" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhLQ-m2s-rcezbz2zcXjlAPG0h2wuR3sOPFIcQIbrTprUV_3cybOSCwdBEZUaBCLKs-223AOhQ4lTLMtXDUbiF9-6idKnGf4UdsIRIxxGodCmGhQn7MbljQ5jApNCnLKb2P7u9xW27BJR224tvUxYJmjNwga3H5QrY4HLZBbpTAH0e6oo-2el42xnXX=s320" width="320" /></a></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 1.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">If Domitian thought himself Jupiter (Zeus) then for the
Christians in Pergamum who were under the “throne of Satan” (Rev. 2:13) this
takes on an even deeper meaning since this Temple was none other than a Temple
dedicated to Zeus which cast a shadow over Pergamum. Domitian would have, by
declaring himself the current incarnation of Jupiter/Zeus have had many temples
that were, by proxy, while not official neokorates like the one established in
Ephesus, nonetheless temples where all would have to worship the emperor who
had declared himself the living incarnation of Jupiter (Zeus). Here we have
another coinage minted under Domitian where he holds the thunderbolt (fulmen)
in his right hand, a sign of his deity. This coinage of 93 CE would heavily
appeal to the Greeks since he, as Jupiter (Zeus) has in the coinage the goddess
Minerva (Athena) behind him.</span></span></p>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhehnJA8msV2vJgZx51KkxVaV_v-HfOpoHQRLjaNo2JA4WA3x-4mVyNbfm8j9EVKtZZGDnT29n_5VBF5SSGFLgPn2bYdsIaSGv6t3EcfAj4RsvBwI37mkDTWytQjv__NN3g4TJbROoNHBhCI7OJrgMkNHMWodUsFyJDEbMJAsezLZxSqgYP5-XVN7yJ=s309" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="163" data-original-width="309" height="163" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhehnJA8msV2vJgZx51KkxVaV_v-HfOpoHQRLjaNo2JA4WA3x-4mVyNbfm8j9EVKtZZGDnT29n_5VBF5SSGFLgPn2bYdsIaSGv6t3EcfAj4RsvBwI37mkDTWytQjv__NN3g4TJbROoNHBhCI7OJrgMkNHMWodUsFyJDEbMJAsezLZxSqgYP5-XVN7yJ" width="309" /></a></div></div><div style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-element: para-border-div; padding: 0in 0in 31pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 31.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">It is not difficult at
all to make connections here. As was written before, we find in the Revelation
Jesus is being worshipped as the true Lord and God by twenty-four elders
clothed in white robes (Rev. 4:4) along with the four living creatures all
calling Jesus “Lord and God” before the throne (Rev. 4:4-11). While one cannot
call all these pieces of evidence conclusive for the dating to be in Domitian’s
reign, many scholars do in fact argue that the vision in Revelation 4 is likely
in some part referring to Domitian’s </span><i style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">Domitian
Games</i><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;"> which would have occurred in Ephesus where he would force all of the
city to come for, praise him, worship him, and dress in all white at his
established neokorate, the first established by a living emperor in Asia Minor.
It is also well recorded that as emperor, this neokorate was built in four
years with a 30-foot statue of Domitian. The construction was so quick that
people referred to it looking from the harbor of Ephesus as “the Beast rising
out of the sea”. You can clearly see, while not conclusive, it is not a stretch
at all to say that this may very well be what John is referencing in Revelation
13.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 31.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">Suetonius notes that
right before Domitian officially became emperor he already had used up so much
money by building statues to himself to be worshipped, restoring many buildings
after a fire (but also erasing the original builders’ names from them and then
having his name inscription placed onto them instead), built the temple in
Ephesus (the first neokorate to a living emperor) to the Flavian dynasty, a
stadium, an Odium, and a pool for sea-fights.</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn15" name="_ftnref15" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[15]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">. This cost so much
apparently that he ended up seizing everyone’s estates, living or deceased and
it is noted that </span><i style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">“The property of the
living and the dead was seized everywhere on any charge brought by any accuser.
It was enough to allege any action or word derogatory to the majesty of the
prince… Besides other taxes, that on the Jews was levied with the utmost
rigor, and those were prosecuted who without publicly acknowledging that faith
yet lived as Jews, as well as those who concealed their origin and did not
pay the tribute levied upon their people. I recall being present in
my youth when the person of a man ninety years old was examined before the
procurator and a very crowded court, to see whether he was circumcised</i><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn16" name="_ftnref16" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[16]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">. This only became worse
as Suetonius notes that </span><i style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">“when he became
emperor, he did not hesitate to boast in the senate that he had conferred their
power on both his father and his brother and that they had but returned him his
own; nor on taking back his wife after their divorce, that he had ‘recalled her
to his divine couch’. He delighted to hear the people in the amphitheater
shout on his feast day: ‘Good Fortune attends our Lord and
Mistress’. Even more, in the Capitoline competition when all the people
begged him with great unanimity to restore Palfurius Sura, who had been
banished sometime before from the senate, and on that occasion received the
prize for oratory, he deigned no reply, but merely had a crier bid them be
silent. With no less arrogance, he began as follows in issuing a circular
letter in the name of his procurators, "Our Master and our God bids that
this is done." And so the custom arose of henceforth addressing him
in no other way even in writing or in conversation. He suffered no statues
to be set up in his honor in the Capitol, except gold and silver and of a fixed
weight. He erected so many and such huge vaulted passageways and arches in the
various regions of the city, adorned with chariots and triumphal emblems, that on
one of them someone wrote in Greek: "It is enough." He held the
consulship seventeen times, more often than any of his predecessors. <a name="13.3.2"></a>Of these, the seven middle ones were in successive years, but
all of them he filled in name only, continuing none beyond the first of May and
few after the Ides of January. <a name="13.3.3"></a>Having assumed the
surname Germanicus after his two triumphs, he renamed the months of September
and October from his own names, calling them "Germanicus" and
"Domitianus," because in the former he had come to the throne and was
born in the latter.</i><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;">”</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftn17" name="_ftnref17" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">[17]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 12pt;"> This seems more than
enough evidence from the Roman historians to justify that there is a justifiable
reason to believe that Domitian professed to be a deity which would be
impossible for the Early Church and St. John to ignore and to justify dating
the Revelation during Domitian’s reign.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 31.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">Lastly, it is very well
documented through all the Roman historians of Domitian’s cruelty to the Jewish
people. This is a historical fact. While we do not have much for Christians’
persecution, much of the time Jew and Christians were mostly seen as two
rivaling sects of Judaism versus each other rather than two distinct sects.
Christianity was still growing in numbers and this should not come as a
surprise as it is not until Pliny and Trajan’s correspondence that we actually
get the first documentation of any sort of method that was used on Christians
as part of their trials for refusing to partake in the Roman lifestyle. While
not conclusive, there seems to be a good amount of evidence from Roman
historians for the Revelation having been written at a late date.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 31.0pt 0in; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 107%;">In conclusion, though by
no means exhaustive, and not at all definitive until more concrete evidence can
be unearthed, as mentioned earlier, we can in fact make a good historical case
for the Revelation being written in the reign of Domitian instead of Nero’s. In
the second affirmative, I will be covering some more archaeology, history,
probably Jewish literature and show some patristic support for the date of
Revelation if I can fit it in to show why it is likely the Revelation was written
historically in the reign of Domitian instead of Nero.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div><p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Tacitus. Fragments. Ch. 1 & 2.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Suetonius. Life of the Caesars. Life of Nero. 112.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Ibid. 152-155.<o:p></o:p></p>
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Tacitus. The Annals. Book 15.34. 284-285.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref5" name="_ftn5" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Tacitus. Annals. 15.34. 334-335. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref6" name="_ftn6" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Tacitus. Histories. Book 2. Chapter 8. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref7" name="_ftn7" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Dio Cassius. Roman History. Epitome of Book 67. 324. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref8" name="_ftn8" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[8]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Pliny the Younger. Letters. Book 3: Letters 9, 10, 11. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref9" name="_ftn9" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[9]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Pliny the Younger. Letters 96.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref10" name="_ftn10" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[10]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Pliny the Younger. Letters. 96-97<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref11" name="_ftn11" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[11]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Dio Cassius. 327. 329. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref12" name="_ftn12" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[12]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Dio Cassius. 335-336. 348-349. Suetonius. Life of Caesars: Life of Domitian.
347.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref13" name="_ftn13" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[13]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Dio Cassius. 348-349.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref14" name="_ftn14" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[14]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Dio Cassius. Epitome of Book 68. 361-365.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref15" name="_ftn15" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[15]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Suetonius. Life of Caesar: Life of Domitian. 351. 366-367.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div id="ftn16">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref16" name="_ftn16" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[16]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Suetonius. Life of Caesar: Life of Domitian. 366-367<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div id="ftn17">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/1st%20Affirmative%20of%20Sergius%20Bale.docx#_ftnref17" name="_ftn17" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span face=""Calibri",sans-serif" style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[17]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Ibid. 368-369.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div><p>---</p><p><b><u>Preston's 1st Negative:</u></b></p><p>After reading Bale’s first affirmative we can clearly see why he has told us, repeatedly, what he
stated in his concluding comment of his first affirmative. He admits that his evidence “is, “not at all
definitive.” His entire presentation contains a lot of “maybes”, “could bes”, “it is possible”
speculation, but absolutely NOTHING definitive, not even substantive. </p><p>He admits we have no archaeological proof for a late date. Quite an admission since on FB he has
produced pictures of coins with Domitian’s likeness on them implying that these coins somehow
point to a late date. </p><p>HE ADMITS that we have virtually NO evidence of widespread Domitianic persecution of
Christians, although admitting that we DO have undeniable evidence of the Neronian persecution. </p><p>Mr. Bale likes to emphasize that Domitian established the first neokorate in Ephesus. But notice:</p><p>1. He did not produce EVEN ONE citation that Domitian persecuted a single Christian in Ephesus. </p><p>2. Significantly, in Christ’s letter to the church at Ephesus, (Revelation 2) where we should expect
SOME record of the proposed raging Domitianic persecution, WE FIND NO HINT, NOT ONE
WORD OF SUCH A PERSECUTION! PERIOD. (In fact, the reference to the Nicolaitans- who
taught the doctrine of Balaam as in Pergamas, may well be identified as a Jewish problem- not
pagan.)</p><p>Since Mr. Bale did not, could not, produce ANY EVIDENCE, of persecution against Christians in
Ephesus, the supposed epi-center of emperor worship his house of cards falls to the ground.</p><p>Bale says: “it is very well documented through all the Roman historians of Domitian’s cruelty to the
Jewish people.” However, he immediately admits that we have scant evidence (if any) of any
persecution of Christians at his hands. He tries to excuse this by claiming that Jews and Christians
were often confused with each other. Realizing he has no solid evidence for PERSECUTION OF
CHRISTIANS, he then admits, “While not conclusive, there seems to be a good amount of evidence
from Roman historians for the Revelation having been written at a late date.” WHAT EVIDENCE
DID HE GIVE? NONE, MERE SPECULATION. WHERE IS THAT “GOOD AMOUNT OF
EVIDENCE,” MR. BALE?</p><p>Bale argues that the Neronic persecution was limited to Rome, and was not in Asia: “We also do not
see it written anywhere of persecution that was anywhere under Nero except for persecution being
localized to the capital of Rome itself. Could people under Nero’s reign in Asia Minor have been
persecuted? It is possible...”</p><p>Well, evidently then, there was a totally distinct persecution of the saints in Asia, just coincidentally
happening at the same time as the Neronian persecution! </p><p>Follow me here:
1 Peter was written circa 65 AD. (John A. T. Robinson, Re-dating the New Testament, Philadelphia,
Westminster Press, 1976), 150+). That puts us squarely in Nero’s reign.</p><p>1 Peter was written to the saints in Asia (1 Peter 1:1f). Revelation was written to the saints in Asia. </p><p>The saints were being persecuted (1 Peter 1:5f; 4:11-12), just as the Asian saints were being
persecuted in Revelation. </p><p>Notice that Peter urged his audience: “Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts and be ready always to
give an ANSWER (from apologia– meaning a legal, courtroom style defense) for the hope that lies
within you.” We thus have early documentation of Christians being “tried” as Christians – matching
the Neronian situation perfectly– but not any situation under Domitian.</p><p>Their persecution, was “filling up the measure of suffering / sin (1 Peter 5:10- epiteleo). This is
directly parallel to Revelation 6:9-11 / 17:6f.</p><p>Peter promised the saints they would only have to endure persecution for a very short time (1 Peter
1:5f), just as the Spirit told the martyrs that their vindication would be “in a little while” (Revelation
6:9f).</p><p>In Revelation 3:10 Jesus promised the saints in Philadelphia: “Because you have kept My command
to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to
test those who dwell on the earth.” Notice that the persecution was literally “about to come”
(mellouses– from mello in the infinitive). The Blass-DeBrunner Greek Grammar says: “mellein with
the infinitive expresses imminence” (Blass-DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and
Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1961), 181).</p><p>So, we have an already present Asian persecution, but we have a “fiery trial” of persecution that was
“about to come.” Then, in an epistle written in AD 65– well before the time of Domitian- we find
Peter saying: “think it not strange concerning the fiery trial THAT IS AMONG YOU.” The Greek
of the text is “The fiery trial that is (present tense) among you (en humin).” It is not a future tense. </p><p>So, John, writing to the Asian saints said that a time of trial (persecution) was about to come. Peter,
writing to the Asian saints, said that the fiery trial was among them. They were not to think that trial
to be strange. WHY? The logical answer is that John in Revelation had told them it was about to
come, AND NOW IT WAS ALREADY AMONG THEM! Revelation was clearly written before
Revelation. </p><p>THIS CANNOT BEREFERENT TO ANY IMAGINARY DOMITIANIC PERSECUTION.Unless
Bale can prove that Revelation and 1 Peter are speaking of two totally different persecutions, both of which were present but about to imminently get worse, and, both of which were to consummately
fill the measure of sin and suffering! If he cannot prove this, his position falls.</p><p>When we honor what Jesus (Matthew 23) and Paul (1 Thessalonians 2:15-16) said about the filling
up of the measure of sin through persecution– by Israel, not Rome- this is tantamount to definitive
evidence of the early date of Revelation. And the reader needs to remember that Bale totally ignored
my arguments on this in my affirmatives. </p><p>Eusebius is often cited as “proof” for a Domitianic persecution of the church. However, Leonard
Thompson notes that a more critical reading of Eusebius raises serious doubts about such a
persecution: “most modern commentators no longer accept a Domitianic persecution of Christians.”
(Leonard L. Thompson, The Book of Revelation: Apocalypse and Empire (Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press,
1990), 16). Eusebius also quotes Irenaeus, who claimed Domitian’s persecution consisted only of
John’s banishment to Patmos and the exile of other Christians to the island of Pontia (CH 3.18.1,
5). That hardly qualifies for a major persecution.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/post-biblical-period/domitian-persecuti
on-of-christians/ </p><p>My challenge to Mr. Bale– Produce a definitive, irrefutable piece of evidence that proves that
Revelation was written after AD 70. Your “could bes” and “possibles” don’t count.</p><p>Produce a definitive, irrefutable piece of evidence that Domitian ever persecuted the church in any
kind of systematic, widespread manner as an official policy. It would prove NOTHING to show that
he “might” have persecuted a small handful of Christians. </p><p>Folks, this is the issue! The issue is NOT: “Domitian killed or banished lots of leading Romans.”
Irrelevant. The issue is NOT, was Domitian a megolamanaic? Not the point. The issue is NOT, “It
is ‘possible’ that this or that happened in Ephesus.” The issue is NOT, is it possible that Domitian
persecuted a few Christians here and there? The issue is, where is the PROOF that Domitian
persecuted the church in any kind of systematic, widespread, way that would fit Revelation in any
way, at all! And do not lose sight of the fact that Dr. Bale, try as he might, had to admit nonetheless
that what he presented is “not at all definitive.” Amen to that!</p><p>Bale says: “We must note that the poet Statius in Silvae 1.6:83–84 does claim that Domitian rejected
the titles. However, the majority consensus of historians at the time seems to suggest that Domitian
did claim deity while living.”</p><p>Notice how Bale glosses over some key facts. He just tells us that a “poet” claims that Domitian
rejected the exalted titles. That is not the whole story.</p><p>Robert Briggs points out that it was DOMITIAN’S OWN PERSONAL HISTORIANS, (Statius [the
poet, DKP] and Quintillian) who record how he would not allow men to deify him (Robert Briggs,
Jewish Temple Imagery in the Book of Revelation, Studies in Biblical Literature, (New York, Peter Lang,
1999), 33, n. 93). Thus, it was not just “a poet” in view. IT WAS DOMITIAN’S OWN PERSONAL HISTORIANS WHO SAID THAT HE REJECTED THE TITLES OF DEIFICATION. </p><p>So, as Mark Wilson says: “The evidence here is mixed” (at best!–
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/post-biblical-period/domitian-persecution-of-ch
ristians/#note04). And Bale repeatedly admits it is not definitive. Thus, Briggs says: “The fashionable
tenet that Domitian aggressively pressured one and all to kowtow to him as dominus et deus noster
must be re-examined, whereupon it is found to be much more questionable than has been and is
widely assumed.” (Briggs, 1999, 33). </p><p>Mr. Bale tries to convince us that Nero did not exile people– he killed them– whereas Domitian
exiled them. Not true. fact. In truth, as Kenneth Gentry shows, there are multiple ancient sources
THAT ASCRIBE JOHN’S BANISHMENT TO THE TIME OF NERO (Kenneth Gentry, Before
Jerusalem Fell, Tyler, Tx; Institute for Christian Economics,1989), 104++). </p><p>Bale attempts to tie Revelation 13 to Domitian by claiming: “Revelation 13 again shows and bears
a lot of similarities here. Pliny even records that Domitian was “the Beast of the Sea, whose teeth
drip with the blood of good Romans.”</p><p>Several problems here.</p><p>1. The fact that Domitian persecuted Romans and Jews is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. For that we
have definitive PROOF. Yet remember, Bale admits that we have no definitive proof that he
persecuted THE CHURCH. This is the critical issue of the debate.</p><p>2. It overlooks that Nero was likewise called the Beast by his contemporaries. As Kenneth Gentry
noted, Nero was known as the ultimate “Beast.”
The pagan writer Apollinus said: “In my travels, which have been wider than ever man yet
accomplished, I have seen many, many wild beasts of Arabia and India; but this beast that is
commonly called a Tyrant, I know not how many heads it has, nor if it be crooked of claw and armed
with horrible fangs...And of wild beasts you cannot say that they were ever known to eat their own
mother, but Nero has gorged himself on this diet.” (From Kenneth Gentry, The Beast of Revelation,
(Tyler, Tx; Institute for Christian Economics, 1989), 42– Gentry cites several other similar sources). </p><p>3. PLINY WAS NOT SPEAKING OF PERSECUTION OFCHRISTIANS – the verything that Bale
must establish. Furthermore, revealingly, as Mark Wilson notes: “No pagan writer of the time ever
accused Domitian, as they had Nero, of persecuting Christians.” (See the citation above- the
accusation against Domitian as a persecutor of the church came literally hundreds of years later). </p><p>Bale offers this: “It is very well documented through all the Roman historians of Domitian’s cruelty
to the Jewish people. This is a historical fact While we do not have much for Christians’ persecution,
much of the time Jew and Christians were mostly seen as two rivaling sects of Judaism versus each
other rather than two distinct sects.”
Once again, this says NOTHING ABOUT PERSECUTION OF THE CHURCH! Persecution of the
Jews and persecution of the church are two distinct issues! </p><p>4. There is something else here about Pliny (circa 112-115 AD). Bale tries to argue that Pliny
referred to past trials of Christians as something of a settled policy. He implies that was under
Domitian. Not accurate. As F. W. Beare noted, “If persecution ‘for the name,’ had been the settled
policy of the Empire for over thirty years, (i.e. in the time of Domitian, DKP) it is not possible that
Pliny, an experienced administrator, should have been in doubt about it.” (F. W. Beare, First Epistle
of Peter, (Great Britain; Oxford, 1967), 12). If you actually want evidence for any kind of “settled
policy” of persecution, it is available in 1 Peter 3:15f as noted above, and well documented under
NERO – not Domitian! </p><p>This point is driven home by the fact that Pliny was a favorite of Domitian. Did Domitian persecute
the church but Pliny did not know about it? One thing is certain: We KNOW that Nero persecuted
the church. We do NOT HAVE DEFINITIVE PROOF THAT DOMITIAN DID. Is it not possible
that Pliny knew of the Neronian persecution policy, but that it was sufficiently distant in the past –
even discontinued in the reign of Domitian- that Pliny had to inquire if Nero’s policies were to be
continued by Trajan?</p><p>5. As Ken Laffer says: “Early attempts to use archeology to prove that certain Christian individuals
were involved in the alleged persecution have, in recent times, found to be, faulty and in need of
correction. Improved assessments of dating techniques have effectively placed the key individuals
outside the persecution time frame that could have involved Domitian.
.... It is extremely likely that Domitian was not as bad as he has been portrayed and that he did not
persecute Roman Christians at any time during his troubled rule.” (The Alleged Persecution of Roman
Christians by Domitian, Ken Laffer, Doctoral Thesis, Edith Cowan University, 2005; Retrieved from
https://ro.ecu.edu.au/theses/639). </p><p>Likewise, Duane Warden says: “In fact there is no evidence that emperor worship was promoted with
anyparticular fervor during the time of Domitian” (Duane Warden, “Imperial Persecution and the Dating
of 1 Peter and Revelation,” Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 34 [June 1991]: 207). All Bale
has given us is speculation– unconvincing speculation. </p><p>A FATAL OVERSIGHT BY BALE</p><p>Mr. Bale places all of his interpretive focus of Revelation on Rome. This is an incredible oversight.
The book of Revelation is a preeminently Jewish book, about the imminent fulfillment of God’s Old
Covenant promises made to Old Covenant Israel. Briggs was correct to note: “It is impossible to
avoid the conclusion that the temple imagery in Revelation is primarily for the benefit of believing
Jews.... The Apocalypse then, is an extremely Jewish book by dint of its temple imagery alone.”
(Briggs, 1999,103). Revelation uses Jewish temple imagery – not Roman temple imagery.</p><p>No other NT book contains as many citations, allusions, echoes of OT prophecy as Revelation. It isthus focused on Israel’s covenant with God. This is manifest in an argument that I presented– totally
ignored by Bale -so let me repeat it.</p><p>Revelation 19:1-2 </p><p>After these things I heard a loud voice ..., saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and
honor and power belong to the Lord our God! For true and righteous are His
judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her
fornication; AND HE HAS AVENGED ON HER THE BLOOD OF HIS
SERVANTS SHED BY HER.” (My emphasis). </p><p>Revelation 19:2 is a direct citation of Deuteronomy 32:43- a prediction of the avenging of the
martyrs in Israel’s last days. </p><p>Therefore, Revelation 19, (like Revelation 6 which applied Isaiah 2-4 to the impending vindication
of the martyrs), spoke of the soon coming avenging of the martyrs, in Israel’s last days in the
destruction of “Babylon.” It is NOT the judgment of Rome. Bale ignored this. </p><p>Revelation 19 quotes from the Song to declare its fulfillment in the judgment of Babylon. </p><p>The Song is about Israel’s last days judgment for shedding innocent blood.</p><p>Therefore, the judgment of Babylon is the judgment of Israel for shedding innocent blood. </p><p>So, as I proved in my first affirmative:</p><p>Deuteronomy 32 foretold the vindication of the martyrs in the judgment of Israel in her last days. </p><p>Isaiah 2-4– The vindication of the martyrs at the destruction of Jerusalem at the last days Day of the
Lord. </p><p>Luke 23:28-31– Isaiah 2:19f applied by Jesus to the coming AD 70 judgment of Jerusalem.</p><p>1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 / 2 Thessalonians 1– Paul cited the verses from Isaiah that Jesus applied to
AD 70, to speak of the imminent Day of the Lord against the Jews for persecuting the saints. </p><p>Revelation 6 & 19- quoted from the same verses from Isaiah 2 that Jesus applied to AD 70 to speak
of the coming soon Day of the Lord to vindicate the blood of the martyrs– predicted by Deuteronomy
32- for Israel’s last days. </p><p>For Bale to falsify any of this he must demonstrate– definitively- that Israel and her blood guilt- is
NOT the focus in this unbroken chain of evidence. He has admitted repeatedly that he cannot
definitively do this!</p><p>Bale simply claimed that since none of these texts explicitly mentions the dating of Revelation that
they are irrelevant. But that exposes his false hermeneutic- as I proved. It is specious to demand that
a text explicitly say something for a doctrine to be true. Bale knows this, but he is desperate to escape
the force of my exegesis. </p><p>Rome is not in Deuteronomy 32, Isaiah 2-4, Matthew 23:29f, Luke 23:28-31, Thessalonians, or
Revelation. In fact, employing Bale’s “hermeneutic” we could say that since there is not a single text
in Revelation that explicitly says Domitian was the beast or that he persecuted Christians, then all
of his “evidence” is irrelevant.</p><p>To drive home the covenantal nature of Revelation, as being focused on the fulfillment of God’s
covenant with Israel, consider what Sebastian Smolarz observes:
Of the 91 metaphorical applications of this word (for harlot, dkp) or its derivatives....
Most significantly of all is the fact that in the OT, almost all of the occurrences of the
prostitution metaphor (86/ 91) apply to the people of the Covenant (Israel, Judah or
Jerusalem). Once (1/ 91) it applies to the original ‘inhabitants of the land’ (Exodus
34:15) and in the remaining few occurrences (4 / 91) it is used of Nineveh (Nahum
3:4. 4.4) and Tyre (Isaiah 23:17). The metaphor of prostitution therefore, appears to
have a particular significance for the people of God, for reasons that are well known;
The Covenant between God and the people of Israel was conceived metaphorically
as a marriage, so the idolatrous worship of other gods represented infidelity to that
marriage and was therefore described in terms of sexual misconduct.” (Sebastian
Smolarz, Covenant and the Metaphor of Divine Marriage in Biblical Thought, (Eugene, Or;
Wipf and Stock, 2011), 238f). </p><p>Unless Bale can prove that Revelation is using the metaphor of “harlot” in a way totally divorced
from its consistent OT usage this eliminates Rome as Babylon. Rome was NEVER IN A MARITAL
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LORD. </p><p>In his final negative Bale accused me, NINE TIMES!!!– OF VIOLATING THE RULES. Totally
false, and of course, HE DID NOT CITE ONE SINGLE RULE THAT I BROKE. </p><p>More than
revealing.
Remember the argument I have presented repeatedly: </p><p>All the blood of all the righteous, including the prophets, of Jesus and Jesus' apostles and
prophets, would be avenged in the destruction of Jerusalem-- Jesus. </p><p>All the blood of all the righteous, including the prophets, Jesus and Jesus’ apostles and
prophets, would be avenged in the destruction of Babylon-- Revelation. </p><p>Therefore, Babylon was Jerusalem.</p><p>Since Revelation was written before the destruction of Babylon, that means Revelation was written
before the destruction of Jerusalem.</p><p>Remember: NO OTHER CITY DID- OR COULD DO- WHAT BABYLON OF REVELATION
HAD DONE- OTHER THAN JERUSALEM. Bale has not touched this and he knows he can’t. His
desperate claim that some Christians died outside of Jerusalem is not the point. That appeal
essentially calls Jesus and Paul a liar. I have asked Bale repeatedly to answer: </p><p>Who did JESUS identify as guilty of killing the prophets, of him, of his apostles and prophets? No
answer. </p><p>Who did PAUL identify as guilty of killing the prophets, of him, of his apostles and prophets? No
answer. </p><p>Per Bale, we are to believe that John is discussing a totally different persecutor – a pagan persecutor -
who had not done, could not have done, what John accused “Babylon” of doing. Yet he admits he
cannot definitively prove his case! Not convincing!</p><p>Revelation is about the imminent- to John- judgment of Babylon. </p><p>Babylon is “where the Lord was crucified”- (Revelation 11:8).
Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem– NOT ROME. </p><p>Therefore, Babylon of Revelation was Jerusalem. </p><p>Consider what Bale must prove:</p><p>That the united testimony from the Tanakh through the NT about the avenging of the martyrs in
Israel’s last days, in the judgment of Jerusalem- is unrelated to Revelation. </p><p>He must prove that although Revelation draws from the OT more than any other NT book, that it is
in reality concerned, not with the fulfillment of Israel’s OT promises, but the fate of a pagan city /
nation!</p><p>He must ignore any relationship between Jesus’ consistent, repeated teaching, parabolic and prosaic,
on the avenging of the martyrs in the judgment of Jerusalem. </p><p>He must prove that some city, other than Jerusalem killed the OT prophets, Jesus and Jesus’ apostles
and prophets. </p><p>He must show that the marriage motif in Revelation is totally divorced from God’s promises to
Israel, and that is was the destruction of a pagan nation that would bring about the marriage between Christ and the Church. </p><p>He must prove how the repeated, emphatic, undeniable statements of the nearness of the fall of
Babylon can be applied to Rome, when her destruction was literally hundreds of years away. </p><p>Bale must, in fact, prove that Revelation is unrelated to the rest of the Bible, and is a totally different,
new revelation about the avenging of the martyrs, the marriage of the Lamb, the New Creation, the
identity of the true persecutor of God’s people. This in spite of the fact that Revelation draws on the
OT more than any other book! </p><p>I have answered every major point presented by Bale- in sharp contrast to how he ignored almost
all of my arguments. All he has done is admit that he has no definitive proof of anything. He has
no proof to offer. </p>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-13806628210816367972021-12-10T18:57:00.002-08:002021-12-10T18:57:45.239-08:00Debating Don Preston: Don Preston's 3rd (Final) Affirmative & My Final Negative<p>Here is Don Preston's 3rd and final affirmative and my final negative. </p><p>(Caps for emphasis only).</p><p>In my 2
nd Affirmative I adduced arguments from Deuteronomy 32, Isaiah 2-4, Matthew 23, Luke
23:28f, 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 / 2 Thessalonians 1, Revelation 6 and Revelation 19, showing the
perfect thematic and temporal correspondence that definitively demands a pre-AD 70 dating of
Revelation. Dr. Bale totally ignored my entire 2
nd
affirmative! When confronted with this on FB he
said he “addressed” my arguments. FALSE. He offered NOT ONE WORD OF EXEGETICAL
ANALYSIS. That is unscholarly and arrogant, an overt violation of the rules.</p><p>My final affirmative will appeal to Daniel 9:24f with other passages. </p><p>Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the
transgression, ....To seal up vision and prophecy.... “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And
till the end of the war desolations are determined. </p><p>For brevity, I will focus on just two of the key elements.</p><p>Seal Vision and Prophecy– This is a prediction of the final fulfillment of All Prophecy. This is the
consensus of scholarly opinion:</p><p>1.) “Prophecies and prophets are sealed, when by the full realization of all prophecies prophecy
ceases, no more prophets anymore appear.” (Keil and Delitzsch, Commentary on the Old Testament, Vol.
9, (Grand Rapids; Eerdmans, 1975), 344).</p><p>2.) “The impression of translators being that all visions and prophecies were to receive completed
fulfillment in the course of these seventy weeks. It appears..., to be more agreeable to the context to
suppose that the prophet is speaking of the absolute cessation of all prophecy. I Cor. 13:8.” (Charles
John Ellicott, Commentary on the Whole Bible, (Cassell and Co., London; 1884), 387.). </p><p>3.) “The vision and prophet will be sealed, that is accredited, because their final accomplishment
has been reached in those events of blessing for God’s earthly people.” (A. C. Gaebelein, The Prophet
Daniel, (Kregel, 1968), 133). </p><p>4.) “The reference is not to the accrediting of the prophecy, but to sealing it up so that it will no
longer appear. Its functions are finished and it is not henceforth needed.” (Edward J. Young, The
Prophecy of Daniel, (Grand Rapids; Eerdmans, 1953), 200). </p><p>5.) “The words taken together refer to the final fulfillment of revelation and prophecy, i.e., when
their functions are shown to be finished.” (James Leon Wood, A Commentary on Daniel, (Grand Rapids;
Zondervan, 1973), 250).</p><p>6.) “To set seal to them, to ratify and confirm the prophet’s prediction.” “The close of the seventy
weeks will bring with it the confirmation of the prophetic utterances.” “A.V. and R.V. ‘seal up,’
means to close up, preclude from activity, the sense of the expression upon this view, being supposed
to be that, prophecies being fulfilled, prophet and vision will be needed no more.” (S. R. Driver, The
Book of Daniel, (Cambridge University Press Warehouse, 1905), 136.).</p><p>7.) “To fulfill the anticipations of all prophetic books.” (J. R. Dummelow, A Commentary on the Holy
Bible, (New York; McMillan Co., 1923), 540).</p><p>In my book, “Seal Up Vision and Prophecy” (Now -[2021]-in fourth edition), I cite over 20 scholarsand could have cited many more - all of whom verify this definition.</p><p>Fact: The vision of Daniel 9 does not extend beyond the destruction of the “city and the sanctuary”
at the time of the Abomination of Desolation.</p><p>Fact: Jesus emphatically posited this for HIS generation (Matthew 24:15-34).
NOTE: THE CITY AND THE TEMPLE WERE NOT DESTROYED BY ANTIOCHUS
EPIPHANES, THUS ELIMINATING THAT APPLICATION OF DANIEL 9.</p><p>Fact: Jesus said that in the destruction of Jerusalem, “all things written must be fulfilled” (Luke
21:22). </p><p>Fact: Revelation 10:7 says that in the sounding of the 7
th (the last) trumpet, the mystery of God
foretold by the prophets would be fulfilled. </p><p>Fact: At the sounding of the 7
th
trumpet, the city, “Where the Lord was crucified” was to be (future,
yet imminent to John) destroyed (Revelation 11:8-15f). </p><p>Thus:
Seventy Weeks were determined on Jerusalem to fulfill ALL vision and prophecy. (Daniel 9
is not about a singular specific prophecy, but vision and prophecy comprehensively
considered, as scholarship confirms). </p><p>The Seventy Weeks would end no later than the destruction of Jerusalem. (In AD 70- per
Jesus).</p><p>All things written would be fulfilled at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem (Luke
21:22) the city where the Lord was crucified– i.e. Babylon (Revelation 10:7 / 11:8f).</p><p>Therefore, Babylon of Revelation, the city where the Lord was crucified, was Jerusalem. </p><p>I suspect we will get more “this is just Preston’s subjective opinion,” or, “this says nothing about
when Revelation was written,” or some other obfuscatoryverbiage, but no actual response. Mr. Bale has no probative answer. </p><p>Now, back to Daniel 9:24: </p><p>Seventy Weeks Are Determined to Finish the Transgression </p><p>“To finish the transgression” meant to fill up the measure of sin. </p><p>Just for fun– Eusebius said: “Instead of, "For sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions," Aquila
translated, "For ending disobedience, and for completing transgression." I think that our Saviour's
words to the Jews, "Ye have filled up the measure of your fathers," are parallel to this."
(Demonstratio Evangelica (Proof of the Gospel) ; BOOK VIII). He - and other patristics - also said the
seventy weeks ended in AD 70.</p><p>Furthermore, all of the major Jewish commentaries, including Rashi, Saadia Gaon (10th century,
Egypt) and Levi ben Gershon, (14th century, France) agree with Rashi’s analysis. (Information from
private email from my friend Reuvan Brauner, a world class Hebrew scholar from Israel).</p><p>So,
Daniel said 70 weeks were determined to fill up the measure of Israel’s sin resulting in the
destruction of Jerusalem.</p><p>Jesus said Israel had killed the prophets and would fill up the measure of sin in his
generation, by killing his apostles and prophets. She would be destroyed (Matthew 23:29f–
totally ignored by Bale).</p><p>Revelation says “Babylon” had killed the prophets and had now filled up the measure of
her sin by killing the apostles and prophets of Jesus, her judgment was coming soon,
shortly and quickly– NOT 450 years away!</p><p>Therefore, Babylon was Jerusalem and Revelation was written prior to AD 70.</p><p>To repeat from my first two affirmatives NO OTHER CITY HAD DONE OR COULD DO
WHAT BABYLON OFREVELATION HAD DONE. ONLY JERUSALEM DID THAT! That
is historical fact, not opinion. Bale has not touched this - and can’t.</p><p>Consider two corroborative NT passages.</p><p>Matthew 21:33f </p><p>The parable of the Vineyard and Wicked Husbandmen is an echo of Daniel 9- “to finish the
transgression.” </p><p>Israel was the Vineyard of the Lord (Isaiah 5). This is not a subjective interpretation.</p><p>We have the time of the harvest of the vineyard. </p><p>We have the persecution of the saints and the Son- filling up the measure of sin. </p><p>We have the destruction of the persecutors AT THE COMING OF THE LORD. </p><p>Like Daniel all of it relates to Israel as the persecutor and the prediction (s) of the coming destruction
of Jerusalem. Nothing about Domitian or Rome here!</p><p>Dr. Bale, does Matthew 21:33f predict the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem for persecuting the saints? </p><p>Notice now Revelation 14:</p><p>V. 6-8 - The announcement that the Judgment of Babylon (the city where the Lord was crucified)
had come; her judgment was at hand. </p><p>This is the Father, who knew the Day and the Hour of the end, declaring that the hour had come. The
destruction of Rome 450 years violates the language of “at hand” and, “has come.”</p><p>V. 18f- Another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried..., saying,
“Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully
ripe.” </p><p>Unless Bale can prove- definitively - that John is using the imagery of the Vine / vineyard in a way
divorced from its OT source, this effectively proves that Revelation 14 is parallel with Matthew 21
in predicting the coming, imminent destruction of Jerusalem. That proves that Revelation was
written before AD 70.</p><p>The NT is clear that the time of the harvest had come. It was announced by John the Baptizer
(Matthew 3:7-12), and by Jesus (John 4:35). It was to occur at the end of the age, in fulfillment of
Daniel 12:3-7, which is explicitly posited for the time when the power of the holy people would be
completely shattered (Daniel 12:3–>Matthew 13:43). Paul said that the end of the ages had come (1
Corinthians 10:11). </p><p>Questions for Dr. Bale:</p><p>Is the vineyard in Matthew 21 different from Revelation 14? If so, PROVE IT. </p><p>Is the time of the harvest in Matthew 21 different from the harvest in Revelation 14? If so, PROVE
IT.</p><p>Is the coming of the Lord to destroy the persecutors in Matthew 21 a different coming of the Lord
to judge the persecutors from that in Revelation 14? If so, PROVE IT. </p><p>There is more:
Matthew 22 and the Wedding
Matthew 22– A king made a Wedding Feast for his Son.</p><p>Mr. Bale– to whom was the promise of the Wedding given? The Tanakh is definitive: It was Israel,
Hosea 2:19f– ‘I will betroth you to me again...” Isaiah 62: “You shall no longer be forsaken.... you
shall be called Beulah” (married).</p><p>Note: The wedding of Isaiah 62 would be at the coming of the Lord in judgment (v. 10-12). This is
quoted directly by Jesus in Matthew 16:27, and emphatically said to take place in the first century
generation - v. 28.</p><p>Furthermore, in Revelation 22:12, Jesus reiterated Matthew 16:27, (and Isaiah 62) saying, “Behold
I come quickly.” Thus, the Wedding– of Revelation– was to occur in the lifetime of the first century
generation. </p><p>Matthew 22- and Revelation -is about God fulfilling His promise to “re-marry” Israel. It has nothing
to do with Rome, who was NEVER married to YHVH- and never divorced! </p><p>The servants sent to invite the guests were persecuted and slain.
This is the message found in Matthew 23:34– “Isend you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of
them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute
from city to city.”</p><p>v. 7: “But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those
murderers, and burned up their city.” </p><p>In Revelation, the Harlot, persecuting city, is burned with fire (Revelation 17:10f). </p><p>At the destruction of the persecuting city, the Wedding took place (19:6-8). </p><p>Mr. Bale, in Matthew 21 what city persecuted the saints, and as a result, the “King” sent out His
armies and burned that city? If this was not Jerusalem, what city was it? Will you answer? </p><p>This is Matthew 23:35-36: “That on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from
the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered
between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this
generation. </p><p>If the persecuting city of Matthew 22 is not the persecuting city of Revelation, PROVE IT. </p><p>In Revelation we find that- just as in Matthew 22– the Wedding takes place at the destruction of a
city, i.e. Babylon: </p><p>19:5f - I heard a loud voice ... in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! .... because He has judged the great harlot
who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servantsshed by her.” And I heard, ... a great multitude... saying,...Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him
glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” </p><p>This Babylon was the city that killed the prophets (16:6). She is “where the Lord was crucified”
(11:8). She killed the apostles and prophets of Jesus (18:20-24).
Her destruction is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32:43 the prophecy of Israel’s last days. It is not
about Rome. - as proven in my 2nd
Affirmative, BUT IGNORED BY BALE. </p><p>Babylon was THE GREAT HARLOT. In the Tanakh- the source of Revelation- the word “harlot”
is used to speak of A WIFE THAT HAS VIOLATED THE MARRIAGE COVENANT: </p><p>“In the OT, almost all of the occurrences of the prostitution metaphor (86 / 91) apply to the people
of the Covenant (Israel, Judah or Jerusalem).” (Sebastian R Smolarz, Covenant and the Metaphor of
Divine Marriage in Biblical Thought, (Eugene, Ore., Wipf and Stock,2011), 8f)</p><p>Jesus called Jerusalem an “adulterous generation” three times (Matthew 12:39; 16:4; Mark 8:38).
What other city than Jerusalem was an adulterous wife, Mr. Bale?
YHVH was NEVER MARRIED TO ROME. Rome therefore could not be an adulterous, (harlot)
wife. Only Old Covenant Jerusalem was EVER married to the Lord, divorced and given the promise
of being married again.</p><p>Mr. Bale, If Babylon is Rome, when was YHVH EVER married to her? Did the Lord marry a pagan
city and call her “the new Jerusalem”? (See Don K. Preston, We Shall Meet Him In the Air, the
Wedding of the King of kings, for a full discussion).</p><p>Mr. Bale, is the Wedding of Matthew 22 different from the Wedding in Revelation? If so, PROVE
IT!</p><p>Is the persecuting city in Matthew 22 different from the persecuting city– the city that killed the
prophets, Jesus and Jesus’ apostles and prophets- in Revelation? If so, PROVE IT!</p><p>The persecuting city of Matthew 22, (that was to be destroyed for persecuting the servants
of the Lord), was first century, Old Covenant Jerusalem.</p><p>The persecuting city of Revelation, Babylon, was about to be destroyed for persecuting the
OT prophets, Jesus, and Jesus’ apostles and prophets. </p><p>Therefore, Babylon of Revelation was first century, Old Covenant Jerusalem– unless Bale
can definitively prove otherwise. (He has admitted that he cannot prove this wrong!)</p><p>I offered the following in my affirmatives and on FB repeatedly. I have challenged Bale to answer
it. He has not typed one word of response. He has no answer. </p><p>All the blood of all the righteous, including the prophets, of Jesus and Jesus' apostles andprophets, would be avenged in the destruction of Jerusalem-- Jesus. This is not a subjective
opinion. It is fact.</p><p>All the blood of all the righteous, including the prophets, Jesus and Jesus’ apostles and
prophets, would be avenged in the destruction of Babylon-- Revelation. This is not a
subjective opinion. It is fact. </p><p>Therefore, Babylon was Jerusalem.</p><p>Finally:</p><p>Fact: Babylon in Revelation was the Great City where the Lord was crucified – Revelation
11:8. </p><p>Fact: Jerusalem is where Jesus was crucified.
Therefore, Babylon in Revelation was Jerusalem.
Since Revelation was written before the destruction of Babylon, that means Revelation was
written before the destruction of Jerusalem. This is not a subjective opinion. It is fact. </p><p>A Faulty Hermeneutic</p><p>In FB discussion 10-28-2021, Bale claimed: “interpretations do notmake something definitive unless
the text itself explicitly states so.” So, per Bale, unless Revelation explicitly says, “Babylon is
Jerusalem,” that identification cannot be proven. This is specious.</p><p>I responded by asking Bale if he is a Trinitarian (knowing that he is). He refused to answer saying
I was “being ridiculous” and that he did not have to answer the question. The reason he refused is
clear: There is no hermeneutic that says unless there is an explicit statement a doctrine cannot be
true. I challenged him to produce a quote from any standard work on hermeneutic that teaches this–
he ignored that.</p><p>Bale knows there is no “explicit statement” in Scripture saying “there is a trinity.” Thus, by his own
hermeneutic, his Trinitarian doctrine cannot be true. Entrapped, he refused to continue that
discussion. He won’t like me posting this, and will claim it is a violation of the rules– it isn’t. The
reason he won’t like it is because it exposes the foundational error of his approach to this debate. </p><p>The rules of this debate state that the negative is to follow and answer, to the best of ability, the
affirmative arguments. Everyone that has read Mr. Bale’s “negatives” knows he has failed,
completely, to follow my arguments and to answer them. </p><p>The contrast between Bale and myself is glaring and revealing. He refused to offer a word of
exegesis in response to my exegesis of numerous Biblical texts, saying he did not do so because of
“word count” restrictions. Yet, he wasted over 250 words telling us that some scholars claim Revelation was a post eventu production from someone falsely claiming to be John. When cornered
on that, he said he did not believe what he shared.</p><p>He has complained that I have not given any “historical arguments.” Well, I consider the inspired
Word of God to be of more value and more authoritative than any uninspired, highly debatable
writings, some written hundreds of years after the fact. Mr. Bale is free to cite them all he wants.</p><p>For those who value the Word of God as I do, the fact that Mr. Bale has totally ignored every
Biblical argument, every syllogism I have offered is more than revealing. Scoffing at my arguments
is not refutation. Calling them my “subjective opinions” does not prove them wrong. Insulting me
has no polemic value, and simply reveals his desperation. </p><p>What I have offered is but a fraction of the evidence that DEFINITIVELY proves that the book of
Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and was predictive of that
event. (I offer a wealth of additional evidence in my book, Who Is This Babylon?). </p><p>---</p><p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"><b><u>My Final Negative:</u></b></span></p><p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">This will be my 3<sup>rd</sup> negative in response to Preston’s
3<sup>rd</sup> and final affirmative. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston is supposed to be arguing that: “</span>The Book of Revelation was definitively written prior
to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and is predictive of that event.”<span style="color: #484848;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston argues that I ignored his entire 2<sup>nd</sup>
affirmative. What more can be said than that this is simply a lie? He claims
that he gave arguments from Deut. 32, Isa. 2-4, Matt. 23, Lk. 23:38, 1 Thess.
2:14-16, 2 Thess. 1, Rev. 6 and 19 and claims they show “<b>the perfect thematic and temporal correspondence that definitively
demands a pre-AD 70 dating of Revelation”. </b>Preston claims I “<b>offered not one word of exegetical
analysis”</b>, then proceeds to produce an ad hominem that this is <b>“unscholarly and arrogant, an overt
violation of the rules”. </b>As I noted, which you the reader can read, in my 2<sup>nd</sup>
negative, Preston, unfortunately, was found to have broken many of the rules he
agreed to and has done so since the question and answer part of the debate by
not bothering to answer every question asked of him. It is unfortunate Mr.
Preston has chosen to go down this unprofessional and unscholarly route but
this debate will continue nonetheless as I agreed to. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">As to the scriptures he tries to argue from, nowhere does Deuteronomy
32, Isaiah 2-4, Matthew 23, Luke 23:28, 1 Thess. 2:14-16, 2 Thess. 1, nor do
the texts in the Revelation itself, chapters 6 nor 19 mention the date of
Revelation either to give us anything remotely definitive to make Preston’s
claim that he will definitively prove Revelation was written pre-70 CE. I will
remind the reader that there is a word limit to these debates, hence I will not
be posting the entirety of the texts that are referenced unless absolutely
necessary for the reader is fully capable of reading them for themselves to see
if they, anywhere, show when the Revelation was written. One will clearly see
that nowhere do any of these texts referenced does happen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston will appeal to Daniel 9:24 here in his 3<sup>rd</sup>
and final affirmative to prove definitively that Revelation was written pre-70
CE. While I am glad Preston decided to quote some scholars of some sort for
once in this debate, the problem is none of these scholars he quotes give any
information about the Revelation nor its dating with what he quotes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">He claims that Daniel’s
mention of <b>“‘Seal Vision and Prophecy’
is a prediction of the final fulfillment of all prophecy. This is the consensus
of scholarly opinion…</b>” as if this is a fact. It is begging the question as
this is not all agreed upon in scholarship. Preston quotes Keil and Delitzsch's
Commentary on the Old Testament Vol. 9, p. 344: “Prophecies and prophets are
sealed, when by the full realization of all prophecies prophecy ceases, no more
prophets any more appear.” Keil also states that <i>“The extinction of prophecy in consequence of its fulfillment is not,
however (with Hengstenberg), to be sought in the time of the manifestation of
Christ in the flesh; for then only the prophecy of the Old Covenant reached its
end, and its place is occupied by the prophecy of the N.T., the fulfilling of
which is still in the future and will not come to an end and terminate till the
kingdom of God is perfected in glory at the termination of the present course
of the world’s history, at the same time with the full conclusive fulfillment
of the O.T. prophecy…</i>”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #484848; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. With limited time, and
the inability to go and fully read this commentary, I can presume these two
scholars do not align with Preston in his full preterism view. They also I
presume do not believe that the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem
initiated the end of prophecy and the end of the Old Covenant as they clearly
state here that this only happens with the full conclusive fulfillment of the
O.T. prophecy. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston continues and
quotes a commentary from Charles John Ellicott about the cessation of all
prophecy. However, if you read the same commentary in the same part of Daniel,
Ellicott states none of what he has said is definitive as Preston tries to make
it out to be when he says in his commentary that on the seventy weeks that
“Great difficulty is experienced in discovering what sort of weeks is intended.
Verses 25-27 are sufficient to show that ordinary weeks cannot be meant.
Possibly, also, the language…implies that ‘weeks of days’ are not intended
here. On the other hand, it is remarkable that in Lev. Xxv.1-10 the word week
should not have been used to signify a period of seven years if year-weeks are
implied in this passage. However, it is generally assumed that we must
understand the weeks to consist of years and not of days… The word ‘week’ in
itself furnishes a clue to the meaning. It implies a ‘heptad’ and is not
necessarily more definite than the ‘time’ mentioned in chap. Vii. 25.<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #484848; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>” One can read on in this
commentary where multiple times Ellicott states he is not forming a conclusive
opinion on this text, something all scholars will acknowledge until something
is proven unanimously to be fact. Preston tries and fails to use this
commentator to present as if what Preston says is a fact when in fact it is
not. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston continues on
quoting A.C. Gaebelein. Gaebelein certainly gives his interpretation of Daniel
9 here and that is good and well but it is an interpretation and other valid
interpreters would disagree with his take and Gaebelein even admits as such in
this commentary when he says that if they understood the text the way he does <i>“</i></span><i>If this had been understood the learned
commentators would not have invented that misleading, blundering interpretation
of the seventy weeks prophecy which is so universally taught in our day. We
shall touch upon these errors in the course of our exposition<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">[3]</span></b></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>”.<span style="color: #484848;"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston then quotes
Edward J Young. I admittedly could not get access to this book and commentary
so I can only go with the answer of I do not know Mr. Young’s full opinion on
the topic he brings up or if he comes at Daniel 9 with proper scholarship
though I assume from what I know of him via the internet that as a Reformed
theologian of Westminister Theological Seminary, that he would, likely be one
to readily admit multiple interpretations have their merits, strengths, and
weaknesses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston then quotes James
Leon Wood. Strangely, upon my first search for this commentary, I found
dispensationalist Thomas Ice quoting Mr. Wood to make a point about the end of
time<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #484848; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. Admittedly, I am not a
dispensationalist but from the looks of things, it seems Ice would be in
complete opposition to Preston’s viewpoint but here they are quoting from the
same theologian’s works. I obviously could not read this commentary in full due
to time restraints. I also could not find access to this commentary but I did
manage to find in archives Wood’s Study Guide to Daniel where he says on the 70
Weeks that the atonement was at the Cross where Christ atoned for the sins of
all people. He then gives how he sees Daniel 9 to be about Christ’s atonement
at the Cross and then the destruction of Jerusalem at 70 CE. He also mentions
this is the case he thinks fits best, implying as all good scholars do, that
there are other options one may also consider in interpretations that could be
better and more valid<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn5" name="_ftnref5" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #484848; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. Wood also is a
dispensationalist as I also found in archives a book of his titled <i>The Bible and Future Events</i> where he
clearly says “<i>the clearest sign of
Christ’s return is the modern state of Israel. The Scriptures teach in the last
days that Jews will return to their homeland in large numbers, with a resultant
reestablishment of their sovereign state.”<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn6" name="_ftnref6" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><b><span style="color: #484848; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">[6]</span></b></span><!--[endif]--></span></a><b> </b></i>Woods even says prophecy is being
fulfilled concerning Israel and began to occur in the 19<sup>th</sup> Century<i>.</i> Preston wants to make it out as if
this scholar of dispensationalism agrees with Preston when anyone can see that
would not be the case as Preston is completely opposed to it being a full preterist.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Next quoted is S. R.
Driver. I’m not particularly sure why Preston quotes this bible critic and it
makes one curious that Preston quotes Mr. Driver who says in p. 135 of this
same commentary that of Daniel 9:24 that “<i>The
70 years foretold by Jeremiah are to be understood as 70 weeks of years (i.e.
490 years); at the end of that period sin will be done away with, and the
redemption of Israel will be complete. Jeremiah’s promises, which, while the
city and nation are being made prey for Antiochus, seem a dead letter, will,
with this new explanation of their meaning, receive their fulfillment; and )as
vv.26, 27 shew) the time when this will take place is not now far distant.” </i>If
Preston read this commentary he knows that Driver has an entire critical commentary
about how these verses in Daniel 9 is generally accepted by historians such as
Ewald and Schurer as being an account of the end of Onias III and shares that
he finds while not definitive that there seem to be a clear reference to
Antiochus’s persecution when he profaned the sanctuary and the Maccabean Revolt
fought against this ruler<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn7" name="_ftnref7" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #484848; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. Driver in fact gives
multiple potential ways to interpret Daniel 9 in his writing here. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Next Preston quotes J.
R. Dummelow which again, I have to wonder if Mr. Preston read anything beyond
what he quotes… Dummelow says on Daniel 9 that <i>“the interpretation of this is not without difficulty on any view of
the book. Its explanation of the 70 years… is, of course, an artificial one… </i>[He
says clearly] <i>There are two main
interpretations to be considered”</i> and then gives them, even giving
reference potentially to Onias III just as we just saw scholar Driver<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn8" name="_ftnref8" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #484848; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 107%;">[8]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a> do confirm these scholarly
men gave their opinions and also gave other positions and discussed the pros
and cons of each viewpoint, something Preston seems to conveniently omit and
overlook in this debate. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">I have to wonder if
Preston didn’t read these men and simply quote-mined them to try and make it
appear that they all validate his assumptions. Preston closes this list of
scholars he references by then referencing himself and saying that he cites 20
scholars in his book and could have cited many more who all verify the
interpretation he assumes. Perhaps he should have cited them then… Maybe they
could have aided his affirmative which still has yet to actually be proven and,
at least for this debate will not be since Preston never made any argument that
proves definitively that the text Revelation is written before 70 CE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Having read the majority
of these scholars and just doing some very basic searches on them to some
degree I can safely assume those scholars listed are not in agreement with
Preston on everything, share there to be multiple opinions and methods of
interpretation that are all just as valid to take as positions. It seems they
don’t even agree with Preston half the time. None of these people besides
Preston are full preterists. Nothing any of these men claim about Daniel 9
share anything definitive about the dating of Revelation nor do they share anything
that has to do with the Revelation. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">I’d also add that the
text Daniel 9 as well does not speak one word about the Revelation nor when the
Revelation was written. Even if we make the assumption Preston was correct
about his interpretation of Daniel 9, none of this gives any conclusive nor
concrete examples of Revelation being written before 70 CE? Therefore, all we
have had so far is a very long plethora of quotes that prove nothing except
Preston holds an interpretation of Daniel 9. He has not shown us anything of
substance that will confirm or give us a concrete example to show definitively
that Revelation was written before 70 CE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Don begs the question
and claims it is a fact that “<b>the vision
of Daniel 9 does not extend beyond the destruction of the ‘city and the
sanctuary’ at the time of the Abomination of Desolation”</b> and claims it is a
fact that <b>“Jesus emphatically posited
this for HIS generation (Matthew 24:15-34)”. </b>Preston claims it to be a fact
that <b>“Jesus said that in the destruction
of Jerusalem, ‘all things written must be fulfilled (Luke 21:22)</b>, claims
that <b>“Revelation 10:7 says that in the
sounding of the 7th (the last) trumpet, the mystery of God foretold by the
prophets would be fulfilled”, </b>and claims that <b>“At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the city, ‘Where the Lord was
crucified’ was to be (future, yet imminent to John) destroyed (Revelation
11:8-15f)”</b>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">These are obviously
hotly debated in terms of interpretation and are simply that, interpretations.
None of these are established facts. Preston can claim something is a fact but
that does not make it necessarily true. “Because I said so” is nothing more
than a fallacy called proof of assertion and that unfortunately seems to have
been most of Preston’s entire modus operandi this entire debate to just assert
something is true because he wants to believe it is true. It obviously doesn’t
fly in the field of anything in the field of academia or scholarship. Many
scholars do not accept Preston’s interpretations of any of the texts he
references and can lay their claims that they are just as valid. Furthermore,
none of the passages Preston quotes tell us what year Revelation was written.
The texts he quotes and references in Revelation 10-11 do not need to be
written before 70 CE for them to be accurate nor inspired by God if we will
argue that the text is from God and inspired. These are all merely assumptions
Preston makes as a full preterist. The canon and prophecy also do not have to
cease just because Preston is a cessationist. Many do not buy into that
interpretation of Scripture and can be said to be just as valid in their
interpretations of what they claim to be inspired scripture. Many scholars in
fact interpret from a later date perspective these chapters and verses
referenced and will argue their interpretations are just as valid as Preston
claims he is. From the scholarly perspective, Preston’s claims will just not
stand up to scrutiny in definitively proving Revelation was written on a date that
is pre-70 CE. One should also note that by 80 CE, Jerusalem, though without a
temple, did reform the Great Sanhedrin and did begin to rebuild Jerusalem.
Jerusalem it is established fact in history and archaeology did not cease to
exist until 136 CE when Jerusalem would be flattened after the Bar Kochba
Revolt and be renamed Aelia Capitolina. Rome would even erect a statue to the
pagan god Jupiter/Zeus for a time where the Temple once stood. It would take
until the 7<sup>th</sup> Century that any Jew would be able to enter the city
again except on the day of Tisha B’Av. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston gives an ad hominem and completely unprofessional
dialogue for anyone claiming to be a scholar where he says he suspects that he
will get nothing more than <b>“‘this is
just Preston’s subjective opinion’</b> <b>or,
‘this says nothing about when Revelation was written’, or some other
obfuscatory verbiage, but no actual response. Mr. Bale has no probative answer.”</b>
Perhaps Preston can show us then where it says DEFINITIVELY (caps for emphasis)
in Daniel 9 where the Revelation was written before 70 CE. Clearly, he won’t be
able to give an answer for that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">I find it humorous Preston quotes Eusebius here since Eusebius
clearly agrees with fellow patristics that Revelation was written after 70 CE
in the reign of Domitian but I digress. Eusebius interpreting Daniel 9’s
seventy weeks to have ended in 70 CE does not mean all prophecy has been
fulfilled. Neither does it mean the Revelation was written before 70 CE.
Eusebius even claims the Revelation wasn’t written before 70 CE but after.
Humorously, Preston announces Rashi and Saadia Gaon and Levi ben Gershon all
agree with each other and that he got this information from someone named
Reuvan Brauner who claims to be a world-class Hebrew scholar from Israel and
doesn’t share what any of these people think, believe, or say about anything. I
have yet also to find any scholarly work or dissertation or anything for that
matter to show this Mr. Brauner is who Don claims he is. To be charitable,
perhaps he is a scholar but as for the rest of this sentence, with charity,
perhaps this is just all typo from Don?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">As I noted in the first and second negative in response to
Preston’s first and second affirmatives, Jerusalem did not kill all prophets.
Jews and Rome killed many of the New Testament prophets and took part in these
killings. Therefore, while Preston can claim Babylon is Jerusalem as fact all
he wishes, it does not make it definitive nor necessarily a true statement. It
is nothing more than him begging the question. He can claim I have not touched
his arguments but in fact, I have and I have kept to the actual debate premise
we both agreed to, to which Preston has given nothing to assist his affirmative
stance beside his interpretation. He quotes as fact that Matthew 21 <b>“is an echo of Daniel 9” </b>and begs the
question.<b> </b>An interpretation one
makes does not make it a fact. Matthew 21 does not give us a definitive date of
Revelation. Whether Israel is the Vineyard of the Lord, Isaiah 5 does not give
us a definitive date of Revelation. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston claims <b>“We have
the destruction of the persecutors AT THE COMING OF THE LORD.” </b>As a matter
of fact, Rome also persecuted the Christians and Early Church before 70 CE and
they were not destroyed in 70 CE. During the destruction of Jerusalem, not
every single Jew died either nor were they all destroyed. This is a HISTORICAL
FACT (caps on emphasis) as Jews and Romans exist and continued to exist after
70 CE. I will also note Jews still exist as well. If as Preston claims the 2<sup>nd</sup>
Coming happened at the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus the Messiah didn’t
destroy all the persecutors. He left Jews and Romans especially standing after
70 CE. Historical facts disprove Preston’s claim. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston begins to try asking me questions now. Whether Matthew
21 was about 70 CE’s destruction of Jerusalem or not, it does not share with us
any definitive account of the book of Revelation and its date. Nothing in
Revelation 14 gives us a date of Revelation. Preston makes a false dichotomy
claiming that “<b>unless Bale can prove
definitively that John is using the imagery of the Vine/vineyard in a way
divorced from its OT source, this effectively proves that Revelation 14 is
parallel with Matthew 21 in predicting the coming, imminent destruction of
Jerusalem. That proves that Revelation was written before AD 70”.</b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">First, proving or disproving John’s imagery of the Vine/vineyard
doesn’t make sense since it is Matthew using this quote. Second, Revelation’s
dating is not dependent on proving or disproving definitively the imagery of
the Vine/vineyard. Third, Revelation 14 nowhere quotes Matthew 21. As a matter
of fact, while Revelation makes allusions to them, Revelation does not actually
quote a single Old Testament nor New Testament work or book. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><b><span style="color: #484848;">“The NT is clear that the
time of the harvest had come. It was announced by John the Baptizer (Matthew
3:7-12), and by Jesus (John 4:35). It was to occur at the end of the age, in
fulfillment of Daniel 12:3-7, which is explicitly posited for the time when the
power of the holy people would be completely shattered (Daniel 12:3–>Matthew
13:43). Paul said that the end of the ages had come (1 Corinthians 10:11).”<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Is Preston trying to claim the 2<sup>nd</sup> Coming happened
when John the Baptist announced it? During Jesus’ first coming and incarnation?
Paul when he states the end of the ages had come? Certainly not, these are
obviously about Jesus’ in His first coming and His Incarnation, death, burial,
resurrection, and ascension. Either way, nothing here gives us any information
about Revelation being written before 70 CE. Of note, Matthew 13 doesn’t quote
Daniel 12. Matthew 13 quotes Isaiah 6 and Psalm 77 (LXX).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston tries to force some questions to be answered by me.
Nothing he asks of me to answer is relevant to this debate and is nothing more
than an attempt to rabbit trail this debate down something other than the
accepted premise which is over the dating of Revelation: pre or post 70 CE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">It is safe to dismiss these questions but I will note that
Matthew 21, Rev 14, Matthew 22, Matthew 23, Hosea 2, Isaiah 62, Matthew 16,
Revelation 22, Revelation 19, Revelation 11, Matthew 12, 16; Mark 8;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston is also trying for a tactic where the debater bombards
the opponent with questions - a gish gallop fallacy. It is safe to say
Brandolini’s Law also applies here. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston next proceeds to unprofessionally mention conversations
made on Facebook to others and not what I have written in this debate. Ad
hominem arguments abound here again and Don does as he did in his second
affirmative and breaks the rules of the debate he agreed to. This violates the
agreement in the debate where “no arguments or materials shall be altered by
additions, deletions, or any other alterations in any way”. I would again ask
Preston to be professional but this has fallen on deaf ears as he, yet again,
breaks the rules of the debate agreed upon here in his 3<sup>rd</sup>
affirmative. <strong><span style="font-weight: normal;"><o:p></o:p></span></strong></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><strong><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #484848; font-weight: normal; padding: 0in;">Preston claims a false dichotomy and a non-sequitur here that “</span></strong><strong><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #484848; padding: 0in;">Therefore, Babylon of Revelation was first
century, Old Covenant Jerusalem– unless Bale can definitively prove otherwise.
(He has admitted that he cannot prove this wrong!)” </span></strong><strong><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #484848; font-weight: normal; padding: 0in;">Then
he claims he “</span></strong><b><span style="color: #484848;">offered the following in my affirmatives
and on FB repeatedly. I have challenged Bale to answer it. He has not typed one
word of response. He has no answer”. </span></b><span style="color: #484848;">I do not need to answer Preston’s questions on Facebook. They
are not part of the debate we agreed upon. Preston needs to stop acting
unprofessional and unscholarly here. He would have already been dismissed in
any academic debate setting due to his actions and violations of agreed-upon
rules. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Preston continues
claiming what he says is to be counted as a definitive fact. This is begging
the question and simply a fallacious way of arguing. I was going to say this is
an appeal to authority but this is more of an appeal to himself as an authority
and begging the question. He simply continues giving his interpretation as if
it is authoritative and a definitive truth when it is not; an argument of
authority. Divine fallacy abounds here. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><strong><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #484848; padding: 0in;"> </span></strong></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><strong><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #484848; font-weight: normal; padding: 0in;">Preston proceeds to bring up a FB discussion yet again. This is not
pertinent to the debate and violates the rules of the debate yet again. Quite
simply, Preston cannot seem to stop violating the very rules we agreed upon and
continues to act and engage in this debate in an unscholarly and unprofessional
manner. Preston is supposed to answer the dating of Revelation is definitively
written before 70 CE. Instead, he resorts to making an argument about me being
a Trinitarian. I haven’t answered these questions because they are irrelevant
to the debate. Me being a Trinitarian does not determine the date of
Revelation. Preston should stick to the topic of debate instead of trying to
straw man and push red herrings and make ad hominem arguments. <o:p></o:p></span></strong></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><strong><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #484848; font-weight: normal; padding: 0in;"> </span></strong></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><b><span style="color: #484848;">“The rules of this debate state that the negative is to follow
and answer, to the best of ability, the affirmative arguments. Everyone that
has read Mr. Bale’s “negatives” knows he has failed, completely, to follow my
arguments and to answer them.”<span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></b></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Don tries to argue that he can demand irrelevant questions to be
answered here. I only need to answer questions that are relevant to the debate.
The same is true of Preston. If I ask for example: “Is Don Preston a Jehovah's
Witness?” or “is Don Preston accepting of polygamy?” or “does Don share a
ministry with William Bell who is openly teaching polygamy is acceptable?” Mr.
Preston does not have to answer a single one of these questions as none of them
are relevant to the dating of Revelation. Whether he is or isn’t, or agrees or
disagrees with those things is irrelevant to the debate. It would also be
spreading the offense fallacy. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><b><span style="color: #484848;">“The contrast between Bale
and myself is glaring and revealing. He refused to offer a word of exegesis in
response to my exegesis of numerous Biblical texts, saying he did not do so
because of “word count” restrictions. Yet, he wasted over 250 words telling us
that some scholars claim Revelation was a post eventu production from someone
falsely claiming to be John. When cornered on that, he said he did not believe
what he shared”. </span></b><span style="color: #484848;">I have
already explained in my second negative in response to Preston’s second
affirmative why I used that example. Don is trying the ergo decedo fallacy, non
sequitur again, red herring, and I am sure a logician could find more fallacies
here. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><b><span style="color: #484848;">“He has complained that I
have not given any ‘historical arguments.’ Well, I consider the inspired Word
of God to be of more value and more authoritative than any uninspired, highly
debatable writings, some written hundreds of years after the fact. Mr. Bale is
free to cite them all he wants.” </span></b><span style="color: #484848;">I have not complained (ad hominem there) about Preston giving no
historical arguments. It is a fact that nowhere in his first nor second
affirmative does he give any historical arguments. Preston then argues a divine
fallacy that he considers “<b>the inspired
Word of God to be of more value and more authoritative than any uninspired,
highly debatable writings, some written hundreds of years after the fact. Mr.
Bale is free to cite them all he wants.”</b> One should readily ask this. Why
did Don bother to quote all those biblical scholars if they are all uninspired
and full of highly debatable writings and are all written hundreds of years
after the texts were written? Calling the kettle black much? Secondly, Don
claims this “<b>inspired Word of God” </b>is
more valuable and more authoritative… this begs the question… what does Don
claim the “inspired Word of God” is? Never is that defined. Mormons for example
will say they believe Jaredites existed in the Americas but if one brings up
archaeology with them and shows there is no case for this being true, they can
claim a divine fallacy too by Preston’s failed logic here. Again, this is not
how scholarship or academia works. Preston commits a divine fallacy claiming
that something is true because he wants it to be just like a Mormon debating
historical truths. All Preston apparently has are his interpretations of what
he believes and nothing remotely close to definitive nor substantial beyond
that to prove that Revelation was written before 70 CE. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">Don claims that <b>“For
those who value the Word of God as I do, the fact that Mr. Bale has totally
ignored every Biblical argument, every syllogism I have offered is more than
revealing. Scoffing at my arguments is not refutation. Calling them my
“subjective opinions” does not prove them wrong. Insulting me has no polemic
value, and simply reveals his desperation”.<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: 15.0pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">This is a no true Scotsman fallacy being done here trying to
make it out that I do not value the Bible. He attempts an appeal to the bandwagon
as well here and blatantly lies when he claims that I have ignored every
Biblical argument he has made. As a matter of fact, I have dealt with each and
every piece that he has brought up and every single time, Don has not proven
definitively that Revelation was written before 70 CE. I would also note that
none of his arguments would work even from a Christian apologetics standpoint.
They certainly would not work at all if he were debating a non-Christian who
doesn’t care about his opinion about what books he thinks come from God or not
over this. Clearly, it doesn’t work with one who identifies as a Christian
either but I digress. Preston next charges me with ad hominem by sharing the
fact that he has given nothing as of yet except for his subjective opinions.
Then he pulls his own ad hominem by calling me a person who insults him and is
desperate. Don has proven throughout this debate that he is unwilling to be
professional about this debate. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><b><span style="color: #484848;">“What I have offered is but a fraction of the evidence that
DEFINITIVELY proves that the book of Revelation was written prior to the
destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and was predictive of that event”. </span></b><span style="color: #484848;"> Perhaps he should have brought those arguments
up then if they are so good? Alas, he has not and this is nothing more than a
nonsensical statement. Preston has given us no proof beyond his subjective
opinion that Revelation is written before 70 CE. He has repeatedly broken the
rules of the debate multiple times and acted in an unscholarly and
unprofessional manner. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;"> </span></p>
<p style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #484848;">In conclusion, as has
been shown above in this final negative against Preston, he has simply done
more or less the same as before. He has given nothing to definitively prove
that the Revelation of St. John was written before 70 CE except proof of
assertion for the most part and then a plethora of needless logical fallacies,
ad hominem, no true Scotsman fallacies, and more as shown above. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><br clear="all" />
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 107%;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Keil and Delitzch’s Commentary on the Old Testament. Volume 9. 344-345.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 107%;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Charles John Ellicott, Commentary on the Whole Bible. Cassell and Co. London.
1884. 387. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn3">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 107%;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
A.C. Gaebelein. The Annotated Bible. Daniel Commentary. 54. <span class="MsoHyperlink"><a href="http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/christ/Gaebelein/Daniel/The%20Prophet%20Daniel.pdf">http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/christ/Gaebelein/Daniel/The%20Prophet%20Daniel.pdf</a></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div id="ftn4">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref4" name="_ftn4" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 107%;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Thomas, Ice. <span class="MsoHyperlink"><a href="https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1030&context=pretrib_arch">https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1030&context=pretrib_arch</a></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref5" name="_ftn5" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 107%;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
James L Wood. Study Guide to Daniel. 115-120. Lamplighter Books. Zondervan.
1975. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref6" name="_ftn6" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 107%;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
James L Wood. The Bible and Future Events. 18-19. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref7" name="_ftn7" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 107%;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a> <span style="background: white; color: #484848; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">S.
R. Driver, The Book of Daniel, (Cambridge University Press Warehouse, 1905),
140-142</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div><p><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Documents/Responding%20to%203rd%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref8" name="_ftn8" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 107%;">[8]</span></span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> <span style="background: white; color: #484848;">J. R. Dummelow. A Commentary on the Holy Bible. New York;
McMillan Co. 1923</span>. 539-541.</span> </p>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-20976556749731240502021-12-10T18:25:00.008-08:002021-12-10T18:25:56.393-08:00Debating Don Preston: Don Preston's 2nd Affirmative & My 2nd Negative<p>Here is Don Preston's 2nd Affirmative and my 2nd Negative... </p><p><b><u>Don's 2nd Affirmative</u></b></p><p>(Caps for emphasis only). </p><p>The contrast between Dr. Bale and myself is graphic. I presented well documented syllogistic
arguments based on the explicit statements of scripture. He complained that I didn’t offer one
“historical” argument!</p><p>Bale’s negative can be reduced to just a few (false) claims, and logical fallacies: </p><p>#1 - Who was Sodom in Revelation? Bale ignored the Biblical data that I presented, claiming falselyfrom Zephaniah, that Edom and Moab were spiritually called Sodom. False. YHVH simply said that
their fate would be LIKE that of Sodom. I took note of this; Bale ignored it. This is NOTHING like
YHVH calling Jerusalem– outright- Sodom (Isaiah 1 / Ezekiel 23). His objection is untenable.</p><p>#2 - Was Revelation a post eventu production? Bale wrote over 250 words suggesting that
Revelation may have been written pseudonymously AFTER AD 70. He gave examples of some
pseudonymous productions. But when Vic Valentino cornered him on this, he said: “I don’t claim
that this prophecy is written post eventum. I give it as an example.” (FB- 10-18-21). </p><p>Think about that! HE DOES NOT BELIEVE WHAT HE OFFERED! He was just throwing up a
cloud of “could be, but who knows” stuff hoping to distract from my Biblical arguments!
If he does not believe that Revelation is a post facto, pseudonymous production, why waste 250+
words suggesting it?? </p><p>While condemning me for giving my “interpretation” he cites “many NT critics and scholars”
who say Revelation was NOT A GENUINE PROPHECY. This impugns the inspiration of
Revelation, so he tells us he does not believe what he offered!!!
Amazing.</p><p>#3– Obfuscation- He seeks to negate what Jesus said about Jerusalem being the source of
martyrdom. He lists a number of martyrs that died outside of Jerusalem but, WHO WERE KILLED
BY JEWS nonetheless! I explicitly said that Jesus was not speaking in a woodenly literalistic way
when he said, “It is not possible that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.” </p><p>Think about this: The ONLY way Bale can counter what I have presented is to prove that Jesus’
words do not mean what they say! Dr. Bale vainly imagines that if he can find just ONE EXAMPLE
of a Christian martyr outside Jerusalem he has answered the argument. Wrong. All it proves is his
desperation to avoid the explicit words of Christ.</p><p>#4 - My logical fallacy? I argue that if Babylon of Revelation was Jerusalem then Revelation was
written prior to AD 70. Bale says I am guilty of a “converse error” logical fallacy: “If A is true then
B is true.”</p><p>Well, the “if - then” (modus ponens) form of argumentation is perfectly valid. Anyone who knows
logic knows this. Paul used this: “If A is true, then B is true,” extensively in 1 Corinthians 15. Was
Paul guilty of a “converse error” Mr. Bale?</p><p>FACT: Revelation predicted– as a future event- the destruction of “Babylon.”</p><p>If Babylon was Jerusalem, then Revelation was written before AD 70.
There is no fallacy on my part.</p><p>#5 - Bale says I blatantly misrepresented him when I noted that he admitted that you cannot
definitively prove the late date. No, HERE ARE HIS OWN WORDS: “I don't want to claim
definitively that Revelation was written in the reign of Domitian because it is not historically
conclusive....” (Facebook - Sep 17, 2021, 4:35 PM). I did not misrepresent him. He made a false accusation.</p><p>Let me further establish my proposition, by examining the theme of The Avenging of the Martyrs,-
a theme that permeates Revelation - to help identify Babylon of Revelation.</p><p>Deuteronomy 32- The Song of Moses. </p><p>The Song predicted what would happen in Israel’s last days 32:19f / 32:31: </p><p>The Gentiles would be called - v. 21f. Since the Gentiles would be called in Israel’s last days, and
Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles - (fulfilling Deut. 32–> Romans 10:20) - this means that Paul’s
generation was the time of Israel’s last days.</p><p>Israel would become the vine of Sodom– v. 32. Babylon in Revelation was spiritually called
Sodom (11:8). The only city in the Bible to be spiritually designated Sodom was Jerusalem. Bale has
not refuted this.</p><p>Song 32:43-”Rejoice Oh Gentiles with my people, for the Lord has avenged the blood of his
saints.”</p><p>Thus, in Israel’s last days- the first century generation- (not fifth century Rome!!) - God would
avenge the blood of the martyrs by judging Israel- not Rome. </p><p>Isaiah 2-4</p><p>Isaiah 2-4 is a united prophecy of:</p><p>The Last Days– (2:2f).</p><p>The Day of the Lord (2:19-21), when men would run to the hills and cry to the rocks “Fall on us!”
This cannot describe an earth burning, end of time event!</p><p>The Day of the Lord - “At that time” would be a time of famine and warfare on Jerusalem (3:1-3,
13-14, 25-25). Israel’s men would die by the edge of the sword, Jerusalem destroyed (3:25-26).</p><p>“In that day” “the Branch” of the Lord would come (4:1).</p><p>“At that time” the Lord would purge the blood guilt from Jerusalem through judgment and fire
(4:4). </p><p>Like the Song that it draws from, inspiration says that in the last days Day of the Lord judgment on
Jerusalem, God would avenge the blood of the saints. There is no “subjective interpretation” here.
It is fact.
</p><p>LUKE 23:28-30: </p><p>As Jesus was led to his death the women who loved him wept. He turned and said to them:
Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your
children. 29 For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the
barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’ Then they will
begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’ </p><p>JESUS QUOTED DIRECTLY FROM ISAIAH 2:19-21 AND APPLIED IT TO THE COMING
DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM! That is heaven’s own interpretation of Isaiah.</p><p>Note: Jesus appeared at the time foretold by the OT prophets- the last days ( Hebrews 1:1-2 / 1 Peter
1:19-20). Jesus said he and the apostles were living in the time anticipated by the OT prophets
(Matthew 13:17).</p><p>Peter affirmed that the first century generation was the “last days” foretold by the prophets (Joel
2:28f / Acts 2;15) – “This is that spoken of by the prophet Joel...It shall come to pass in the last
days.” He urged his audience: “save yourselves from this crooked and perverse generation” a direct
echo of Deuteronomy 32:5! </p><p>So, Jesus applied Isaiah 2 to his generation and the impending judgment of Jerusalem and the NT
writers tell us they were living in the time foretold by the OT prophets for the Day of the Lord to
avenge the blood of the martyrs. They even cite the verses above. They did not speak of another, far
distant time, another Day of the Lord, another avenging of the martyrs.</p><p>Matthew 23:29-37: </p><p>Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the
prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had lived in the
days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the
prophets.’ “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those
who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore,indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and
crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from
city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the
blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you
murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things
will come upon this generation. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the
prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your
children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not
willing! </p><p>Bale totally ignored this text. Little wonder why!</p><p>Fact: Jesus: Jerusalem had slain the prophets. </p><p>Fact: She would also kill him (Matthew 21:33f). </p><p>Fact: She would kill Jesus’ apostles and prophets. </p><p>Fact: She was guilty of all the blood shed on the earth. </p><p>Fact: She would fill the measure of her father’s blood guilt, and be destroyed in the first century
generation. </p><p>These are not disputable facts, unless you want to pervert the text. BALE HAS NOT ANSWERED
THIS.</p><p>So,
All the blood of all the righteous, including the prophets, of Jesus and Jesus' apostles and
prophets, would be avenged in the destruction of Jerusalem-- Jesus. </p><p>All the blood of all the righteous, including the prophets, Jesus and Jesus’ apostles and
prophets, would be avenged in the destruction of Babylon-- Revelation. </p><p>Therefore, Babylon was Jerusalem. </p><p>Since Revelation was written before the destruction of Babylon, that means Revelation was
written before the destruction of Jerusalem. </p><p>Mr. Bale needs to answer this.</p><p>No city other than Jerusalem did or could do what Revelation says “BABYLON” HAD DONE!
Rome didn’t and couldn’t.</p><p>1 Corinthians 4:9-10</p><p>For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those
condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels
as well as to human beings. </p><p>Fact: Jesus, and Paul, said that Israel would fill the measure of their blood guilt by killing his
apostles and prophets. Paul said God had set forth the apostles “last of all as men condemned to die.”
Were the apostles the last men to ever die for Christ? No. That is not the point. But as Jesus said
Israel would fill the measure of her sin by killing the apostles, Paul declares that the apostles were
the last to die– in order to fill up that measure of sin! (See Colossians 1:24f for more on this).</p><p>In Revelation Babylon’s cup of sin was now full because in her was found the blood of the apostles
and prophets of Christ. Perfect correspondence. (Jerusalem was even responsible for the death of
Paul and Peter. Nero’s inner circle of Jews prompted him to persecute the Christians). </p><p>Bale tried to deflect the force of this by citing highly debatable, uninspired “church tradition” written
long after the fact, that records the death of the apostles. Evidently, Bale trusts uninspired, dubious
“tradition” (written LONG after the facts) more than Scripture itself. </p><p>1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 </p><p>For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in
Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just
as they did from the Judeans, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets,
and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,
forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up
the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.</p><p>Paul undeniably repeats the elements of Matthew 23. Israel - not Rome - was guilty of killing the
prophets, Jesus and Jesus’ apostles and prophets. In so doing they were filling the cup of their sin.
Judgment was imminent. </p><p>Bale has not touched this. </p><p>2 Thessalonians 1:4-12</p><p>Fact: Paul addressed living Christians at Thessalonica circa AD 50-51. </p><p>Fact: Those Christians were being persecuted by their Jewish countrymen (Acts 17:1-7). </p><p>Fact: Paul promised those living Christians “relief” (anesis, relief from the pressure of their
persecution). </p><p>Fact: That relief would come when their Jewish persecutors became the persecuted: “It is a righteousthing with God to repay with tribulation, those who are troubling you.” </p><p>Fact: That relief would come when the Jewish persecutors were: “punished with everlasting
destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.” </p><p>Fact: This is a verbatim quote of Isaiah 2:19-21- THE SAME VERSE QUOTED BY JESUS in
Luke 23. Paul quoted Isaiah to predict the coming Dayof the Lord judgment on Israel for persecuting
the saints. </p><p>So...
Isaiah predicted the last days Day of the Lord to avenge the martyrs (4:1-4), when Jerusalem would
be destroyed (Isaiah 3:24-25).</p><p>Jesus applied Isaiah 2:19-21 to AD 70 (Luke 23:28-31).</p><p>Paul quoted from the very verses from Isaiah that Jesus applied to AD 70, to predict the coming soon
judgment on the Jews for persecuting the Thessalonians.</p><p>That judgment would be in the lifetime of the Thessalonians- as Jesus said in Matthew 23:36.</p><p>Revelation 6:9-17</p><p>Fact: The martyrs cried out for vindication / vengeance.</p><p>Fact: They were told to rest “for a little while” Bale would have that to be hundreds of years!!!
Hardly qualifies for “a little while”!! </p><p>Fact: Revelation 6:12f - Their vindication would come at the Dayof the Lord, when men would “run
to the mountains, hide in the caves and cry “fall on us”– A DIRECT QUOTE OF ISAIAH 2:19F! </p><p>So, Isaiah 2-4 foretold the last days Day of the Lord when the blood guilt of Jerusalem would be
cleansed through judgment and the destruction of Jerusalem. It would be when men would run to the
hills, hide in the caves and cry to the rocks “fall on us from the presence of the Lord!” </p><p>Fact: Jesus applied Isaiah 2:19f to the coming judgment on Jerusalem for killing him. </p><p>Fact: Paul applied the same verses that Jesus applied to AD 70, to the coming judgment of the Jews
for persecuting the saints. </p><p>Fact: John also quoted THE SAME VERSE from Isaiah that Jesus applied to AD 70 to the coming
soon judgment on Babylon, the city that killed the prophets, Jesus, and Jesus’ apostles and prophets. </p><p>We have perfect correspondence between Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, Paul and Revelation. </p><p>Moses predicted the vindication of the martyrs in Israel’s last days.</p><p>Isaiah is irrefutably a prophecy of the last days Day of the Lord when the martyrs would be
vindicated by the destruction of Jerusalem. This is no “subjective interpretation.” It is FACT.</p><p>Jesus undeniably applied Isaiah 2:19f to the impending AD 70 judgment on Jerusalem for killing
him. </p><p>Paul quoted verbatim from the same verses that Jesus quoted from Isaiah, to speak of the impending
judgment on the Jews for persecuting the saints. </p><p>John, in Revelation, quoted VERBATIM from the same verses that Jesus applied to AD 70, the same
verses that Paul quoted to speak of the impending judgment on the Jews for persecuting the saints. </p><p>John- like Jesus and Paul- cited Isaiah to speak of the coming soon, (not centuries away) judgment
on “Babylon” for killing the prophets, Jesus, and Jesus’ apostles and prophets. Jesus had earlier
explicitly laid the blame for killing the prophets, himself, and his apostles and prophets at the feet
of Jerusalem (Matthew 23 / Luke 11:49). Not Rome- no other city than Jerusalem.</p><p>Revelation 19:1-2</p><p>After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying,
“Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2
For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who
corrupted the earth with her fornication; AND HE HAS AVENGED ON HER THE
BLOOD OF HIS SERVANTS SHED BY HER.” (My emphasis).</p><p>Revelation 19:1-2
After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying,
“Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2
For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who
corrupted the earth with her fornication; AND HE HAS AVENGED ON HER THE
BLOOD OF HIS SERVANTS SHED BY HER.” (My emphasis). </p><p>Revelation 19:2 is a direct citation of Deuteronomy 32:43- a prediction of the avenging of the
martyrs in Israel’s last days.</p><p>Therefore, Revelation 19, (just like Revelation 6 which applied Isaiah 2-4 to the soon coming
vindication of the martyrs), spoke of the soon coming avenging of the martyrs, in Israel’s last days
in the destruction of “Babylon.” It is NOT the judgment of Rome. </p><p>Revelation 19 quotes from the Song to declare its fulfillment in the judgment of Babylon.</p><p>The Song is about Israel’s last days judgment for shedding innocent blood. </p><p>Therefore, the judgment of Babylon is the judgment of Israel for shedding innocent blood.</p><p>The Song- and Revelation 19- is not about Rome.</p><p>So,
Deuteronomy 32– Vindication of the martyrs in the judgment of Israel in her last days.</p><p>Isaiah 2-4– The vindication of the martyrs at the destruction of Jerusalem at the last days Day of the
Lord. </p><p>Luke 23:28-31– Isaiah 2:19f applied by Jesus to the coming AD 70 judgment of Jerusalem.</p><p>1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 / 2 Thessalonians 1– Paul cited the verses from Isaiah that Jesus applied to
AD 70, to speak of the imminent Day of the Lord against the Jews for persecuting the saints. </p><p>Revelation 6 & 19- quoted from the same verses from Isaiah 2 that Jesus applied to AD 70 to speak
of the coming soon Day of the Lord to vindicate the blood of the martyrs– predicted by Deuteronomy
32- for Israel’s last days. </p><p>For Bale to falsify any of this he must demonstrate– definitively- that Israel and her blood guilt- is
NOT the focus in this unbroken chain of evidence. He has admitted repeatedly that he cannot
definitively do this! </p><p>Rome is not in Deuteronomy 32, Isaiah 2-4, Matthew 23:29f, Luke 23:28-31, Thessalonians, or
Revelation. </p><p>Since Revelation is about the vindication of the martyrs in the judgment of Babylon, in fulfillment
of these earlier prophecies, and since each of these earlier prophecies are about Israel’s blood guilt
and the AD 70 judgment of Jerusalem, this is definitive, internal Biblical proof that Babylon of
Revelation was Old Covenant Jerusalem. </p><p>---</p><p>My Negative: </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">This will be my second negative in
response to Mr. Preston’s second affirmative. Quotes of Preston shall be in
bold and quotations As I noted in Preston’s first affirmative, he gave not one documentation
of historical evidence nor a single piece of evidence beyond his interpretation
of what he believes to be “Scripture” and “inspired” to assist him in
definitively proving the date of Revelation is before 70 CE. I would remind
readers and Mr. Preston that the debate is not over whether the text itself is
“inspired by God”. The debate is over when the Revelation was written: before
or after 70 CE. Mr. Preston claims he will prove definitively that the
Revelation is written before 70 CE. That is his affirmative.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Preston falsely claims I </span><b style="background-color: white; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">“ignored the Biblical data that I </b><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">[Preston]</span><b style="background-color: white; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> presented…”</b><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> He gives </span><span style="background-color: white; color: #1c1e21; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Deuteronomy 32; Isaiah 1, 2-4; Ezekiel 23; Joel 2,
Matthew 13, 21, and 23; Luke 11 and 23, Acts 2 and 17; Romans 10; 1 Cor. 4 and
15; 1 Thess. 2; 2 Thess. 1; 1 Peter 1, Hebrews 1, and Revelation 6, 11, and 19
as his proof. Not one chapter or verse he gave from any of these texts tells us
about the Revelation of St. John and not a single one of these gives us any
details about when the date of the Revelation was given. Nothing </span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">provided
gives us any definitive way to make a claim about the dating of Revelation nor
does it give us any way to historically document the Revelation being written
before or for that matter after 70 CE. I have obviously not ignored the
internal data. It is just that none of the evidence Preston has given can lead
us to conclude definitively that Revelation was written before 70 CE. Preston
at best gives us nothing beyond telling us his interpretation of Revelation. I
could give my interpretation as well of the text but it would not prove the
dating of Revelation one bit in any impactful way that makes it a fact,
definitive, and conclusive.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Preston notes my mention that
Revelation may have been written as a post eventu production (meaning after the
event and thus after 70 CE). He writes that I “</span><b style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">wrote over 250 words suggesting that Revelation may have been written
pseudonymously AFTER AD 70</b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">”. Nowhere do I claim in my first negative that
this has to be true that it is a post eventu production. I do in fact give it
as an example, as there are many myriads of reasons that Revelation could be
written after 70 CE instead of before 70 CE and this is, in fact, one of those.
To reiterate, this debate is not over the text of Revelation being inspired or
not and it is not a debate over who has the superior interpretation of
“Scripture”. It would be beneficial for Preston in this debate to quit arguing
over what is and is not inspired as it is irrelevant to the debate and
irrelevant to dating the Revelation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Don gives a comment I made on
Facebook to a Vic Valentino. This comment thread is irrelevant to the debate
and I believe does break the rules of debate as we are supposed to be debating
what is in the written debate, not what is outside of the debate like a comment
thread on Facebook. This violates the rules of the debate we agreed upon where
“</span><i style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">no arguments or material shall be
altered by additions, deletions, or any other alterations in any way”.</i><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> This
is not in the first affirmative nor is Vic Valentino and my conversation on
Facebook in my first negative in response to Preston’s first affirmative. This
is adding and trying to alter the arguments or material given by adding him
into what is already written. I do not see Preston mention him in his first
affirmative. This seems to be nothing more than some kind of diversionary
tactic, an attempt to obfuscate from the written debate itself. It is definitely
a red herring. It is also irrelevant to the debate and I would ask Preston to remain
professional and stick to the written debate, its affirmatives and negatives,
and not Facebook comments.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">“Think
about that! HE DOES NOT BELIEVE WHAT HE OFFERED!”</span></b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> This debate again, and I must reiterate this for the
reader, is not about what I believe personally about the text from a religious
perspective. The debate is over whether Revelation is written before or after
70 CE. Preston gives yet again a red herring, a straw man, and an ad hominem
here. It also again violates the rules of the debate. Preston of note also
breaks Rule 6 of Hedge’s Rule of Conduct.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">“He
was just throwing up a cloud of ‘could be, but who knows’ stuff hoping to
distract from my Biblical arguments! If he does not believe that Revelation is
a post facto, pseudonymous production, why waste 250+ words suggesting it??” </span></b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">This statement is ad hominem, a straw man, editing on the
offense, and a red herring. This is a debate and in this portion, I am to argue
in the negative. It is again not a debate over my interpretation or beliefs
about the text itself from a religious perspective. It is a debate over dating
a text. I gave this as an example of why Preston is not necessarily correct. I
do not argue it as a fact as to whether Revelation is a post facto production
or not. Here Preston of note breaks Rule 4 and 6 of Hedge’s Rule of Conduct.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">“While
condemning me for giving my ‘interpretation’ he cites ‘many NT critics and
scholars’ who say Revelation was NOT A GENUINE PROPHECY. This impugns the
inspiration of Revelation, so he tells us he does not believe what he
offered!!!” </span></b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">I did not “condemn” Mr. Preston.
This is the fallacy of editing on the offense. I did point out he has offered
not a single source of historical data beyond ambiguous texts and his
interpretation of the texts. If you read them, nowhere do they claim or offer
us any evidence inside of them that the Revelation is written before or after
70 CE. This again is not a debate over whether the Revelation is an “inspired
text of God” or not. Preston next accuses me of obfuscation and that I seek to <b>“negate what Jesus said about Jerusalem
being the source of martyrdom. He lists a number of martyrs that died outside
of Jerusalem but, WHO WERE KILLED BY JEWS nonetheless!”</b> It seems Preston
leaves out I also mention martyrs who were killed by Gentiles. Nonetheless,
Preston gives nothing but his interpretation here that he believes Jerusalem should
be identified as the “Babylon” mentioned in Revelation. His argument would be
better served by trying to use some historical documentation if he can find
any, but instead, all we get is again an interpretation of a text that amounts
to nothing more than “it is true because I believe it and declare it so” (an
argument of authority).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">“Think
about this: The ONLY way Bale can counter what I have presented is to prove
that Jesus’ words do not mean what they say! Dr. Bale vainly imagines that if
he can find just ONE EXAMPLE of a Christian martyr outside Jerusalem he has
answered the argument. Wrong. All it proves is his desperation to avoid the
explicit words of Christ.” </span></b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Mr. Preston
uses a false dichotomy, the statement is loaded in the same manner as a loaded
question, he begs the question, tries for an illegal proof reversal here, and
delivers a lot of ad hominem fallacies consistently here presenting false
claims and suggesting I don’t believe the words of Jesus… which again, is
irrelevant to the debate. Again he employs an argument about my personal
interpretations and beliefs that are irrelevant to this debate over the
Revelation’s dating. Red herring is used again here as well.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Of note, Preston because he uses ad
hominem here breaks Rules 2 and 4 of Hedge’s Rules of Conduct.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Preston tries for a red herring
about 1 Corinthians 15 and tries to declare that his converse error is a valid
argument. Then he claims that Revelation’s usage of the term “Babylon” is
Jerusalem and presents it as a fact when it is nothing more than his
interpretation. Again absolutely irrelevant to prove definitively whether the
text is written before or after 70 CE. Many fallacies were made here on
Preston’s part. Nowhere does he show us Revelation was written before 70 CE.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Preston in his fifth point again returns
to Facebook comments instead of sticking to the written debate itself. Comments
on Facebook are irrelevant to this debate. In a debate, Preston and I should be
sticking to what is written inside the debate itself. I am to argue in this
debate for a later date but I will not in the debate argue for it as being conclusive.
Preston is attempting some form of misrepresentation. You can read what my
affirmative is to be in the propositions of the debate we agreed to. He
continues with nothing more than his interpretation of some texts that give us
nothing about the date of Revelation and I am not in this debate arguing over
superiority or inferiority over someone’s interpretation of a Bible book. He
erroneously claims that the texts he gives are </span><b style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">“not disputable facts unless you want to pervert the text”</b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">.
Claiming your interpretation as fact does not mean it is a fact. A divine fallacy
is employed here and false dichotomies abound since people all interpret the
texts he references differently. The debate is not over this. It is a red
herring because Preston keeps bringing irrelevant things up like what is
inspired or non-inspired when he should be debating about the date of
Revelation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Of note, Preston breaks the rules of
the debate we agreed upon as noted up top when I discussed his first attempt to
bring a Facebook post into this. He also because he attempts a
misrepresentation breaks Hedge’s Rule of Conduct 2 and 4.</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">“Bale
tried to deflect the force of this by citing highly debatable, uninspired ‘church
tradition’ written long after the fact that records the death of the apostles.
Evidently, Bale trusts uninspired, dubious ‘tradition’ (written LONG after the
facts) more than Scripture itself”.</span></b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
This is filled with fallacies. The debate is not over inspiration nor
non-inspiration. He tries what seems to come close to an ergo decedo fallacy
here. I am not arguing over church tradition being inspired or non-inspired. I
simply gave some historical works that aid in potentially documenting the dates
of the deaths of the apostles which does contradict Preston’s argument. These
documents share what happened to the apostles and it should be noted, could
obviously be debated about, which leaves the matter of the times of their
deaths inconclusive. A lot of this is non-sequitur, loaded statements, and I
suppose it is also an attempt at a divine fallacy again since he brings up
inspiration and non-inspiration again which is irrelevant to the debate. Preston
brings up Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians where not a single piece of the information
therein these texts shows us that Revelation was written before 70 CE. Preston
breaks Hedge’s Rule 2, 4, 6, and 7 here.</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">In conclusion, Preston adds nothing
of substance to this debate to prove definitively that Revelation was written
before 70 CE. He certainly writes a lot and gives his interpretation of what he
believes about the texts he quotes from, but he gives absolutely nothing that
definitively dates the Revelation to be before 70 CE. So far, Preston has not
given anything other than his subjective interpretation of what he believes the
Bible and Revelation are about. </span><span style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">He covers nothing
about the book itself except interpretations of what he believes Revelation is
about and while we should look at internal data, nothing he has given to us
proves definitively the Revelation was written before 70 CE. None of the “Scripture”
he gives us says anything about the book of Revelation nor when it was written,
and when he quotes Revelation itself, there is nothing internally found to give
any indication it was written definitively before 70 CE. Multiple times Preston
breaks the rules he agreed to in this written debate and one can only hope that
for the sake of a decent debate that Mr. Preston can be professional and do a
better job in his 3<sup>rd</sup> and final affirmative.</span> </p>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-84973551014541021592021-12-10T17:36:00.002-08:002021-12-10T21:00:02.096-08:00Debating Don Preston: Don Preston's 1st Affirmative & Bale's (my) 1st Negative<p> Continuing with the debate between Don Preston and myself (using the burner account Sergius Bale)... </p><p><b><u>Don's First Affirmative: <br /></u></b><br /><u>Date of Revelation: Before AD70 or After?</u><br />I affirm that Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and foretold that event. Understanding the dating of Revelation is crucial to a proper interpretation of the Apocalypse since the coming of the Lord (parousia), the judgment and the resurrection (the judgment of the living and the dead) all occur at the time of, in direct connection to the judgment of “Babylon.” To have an anachronistic view of the book produces a false interpretation.</p><p>If it is established that “Babylon” of Revelation was first century, Old Covenant Jerusalem, that fully, definitively proves that Revelation was written prior to AD 70. So, let’s identify Babylon.</p><p><u>"Babylon Was The City That Killed The OT Prophets (Revelation 16:4-7)</u></p><p>You are righteous, O Lord, The One who is and who was and who is to be, Because You have judged these things. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due.” And I heard another from the altar saying, “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.” (Revelation 16:6f).</p><p>Note the reference to the “altar” which is where the souls of the martyrs were as they cried out for vindication and vengeance on those who had killed them (Revelation 6:9f). That vindication would be at the Great Day of God’s Wrath. Hang onto that.</p><p><u>FACT</u>: In the NT, when the anarthrous word “prophet” or “the prophets” is used, without a contextual qualifier (Cf. 1 Cor. 12:28-29 / Ephesians 2:2 / 4:8f, etc) it invariably refers to OT prophets. </p><p>The term “the prophets” is used 72 times in the New Testament. This count does not include the term “the prophet” singular, or the anarthrous “prophets.” In the instances where “the prophet” is used, it almost invariably cites a specific OT prophet. Only 12 times does the term “prophets” refer to prophets of Jesus. In each of the 12 instances, the context demands that the prophets be identified as New Covenant prophets, (Acts 13:1f; 15:32; Ephesians 2:20; 3:8, 4:8f etc.). In Revelation 16, there is no indication that New Testament prophets are in view. </p><p><u>FACT:</u> No city in the entire Bible - other than Jerusalem - was ever accused of killing God’s prophets. </p><p><u>FACT:</u> Jesus identified Old Covenant Jerusalem as the city guilty of that crime: </p><p>Matthew 23:29-37: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the 1 prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! </p><p>Jesus was emphatic that Jerusalem was THE source for all persecution of “the prophets”: Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem. He did not mean that in a rigidly literalistic manner, but was pointing out that Jerusalem was the source for the death of all of God’s OT prophets- and would be the cause of the death of his apostles and prophets. </p><p>Jesus’ parables confirm this. In Matthew 21, the wicked husbandmen persecuted the messengers of the Master, before the sending of the Master’s son. Likewise in Matthew 22, the parable of the wedding, is referent to the persecution of the prophets of God. </p><p>Steven, in the temple, said to those Jews who had just been guilty of killing Jesus– “Which of the prophets have you not slain?” (Acts 7:52).</p><p>Paul rehearsed that bloody history of the Jews as he addressed the Thessalonians being persecuted by their Jewish countrymen- (Acts 17:1-7)– “who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men.” It was OC Israel / Jerusalem– and no other entity - that had historically and Biblically killed the prophets. </p><p>Now:</p><p>The unbroken Biblical evidence is that OT Jerusalem was the city that killed the OT prophets.</p><p>Babylon of Revelation killed the OT prophets.</p><p>NO PAGAN CITY KILLED AN OT PROPHET! </p><p>NO CITY AFTER AD 70 COULD EVER KILL AN OT PROPHET!</p><p>Therefore, Babylon of Revelation was OT Jerusalem.</p><p>This means that since Revelation was predicting the yet future, but imminent, destruction of Babylon / Jerusalem, the book of Revelation was written before the fall of Jerusalem.</p><p>On this point alone my proposition is proven, and Sergius’ is falsified. Unless Sergius can prove that Revelation breaks the heretofore unbroken chain of evidence, and demonstrate definitively that Babylon of Revelation was some other city than that which the Bible, in every occurrence identifies as the city that killed the OT prophets, then it is undeniably true that Babylon of Revelation was Old Covenant Jerusalem. (Sergius admits that he cannot definitively prove his proposition!!) </p><p>To my next point: </p><p><u>“Babylon” was, “Where the Lord was crucified.”</u></p><p> Nothing could be more definitive. That statement, “It is also where the Lord was crucified” is the interpretive explanation of the spiritual designation, leaving no doubt whatsoever about the identity of Babylon. Jesus was not crucified anywhere but at one city, only one city was guilty of crucifying him. “Let his blood be on us and on our children!” Matthew 27:25). </p><p>The text says the city was “spiritually called Sodom and Egypt,” Note the following:</p><p><u>BIBLICALLY, ONLY ONE CITY IS EVER SPIRITUALLY DESIGNATED AS SODOM – OLD COVENANT JERUSALEM.</u></p><p> 1. Deuteronomy 32:32- The Lord said that in Israel’s last days (32:19-20, 29), “Her vine is the vine of Sodom” (v. 32).</p><p>2. Isaiah 1:9-10- “Hear the word of the Lord, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to the law of our God, You people of Gomorrah.” - She was then guilty of the same sins as Babylon in Revelation. (Cf. Is. 3:9f also).</p><p>3. Jeremiah 23:14 - “Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem: They commit adultery and walk in lies; They also strengthen the hands of evildoers, So that no one turns back from his wickedness. All of them are like Sodom to Me, And her inhabitants like Gomorrah.” </p><p>4. Ezekiel 16– Several times in this chapter YHVH called Israel and Judah “Sodom and Gomorrah” (v. 44-56). The reason for it is because they committed spiritual adultery and played the “harlot” with the nations. They were also guilty of shedding innocent blood– i.e. the very sins of Babylon in Revelation. (We cannot forget that Jesus called Jerusalem and the Jews of his generation the “adulterous generation”- Matthew 12 / 16). (In Jeremiah 49 the Lord compared the coming destruction of Edom with the past destruction of Sodom. But that is simply a comparison of degrees of punishment. He did not call Edom “Sodom.”) </p><p>So... Babylon in Revelation was spiritually called Sodom. </p><p>The only city in the Bible ever spiritually called Sodom was Old Covenant Jerusalem.</p><p>Therefore, Babylon in Revelation was Old Covenant Jerusalem– unless Sergius can definitively prove that Revelation is breaking from the previous united testimony.</p><p><u>Babylon is the city that killed the apostles and prophets of Jesus- all the martyrs</u></p><p> Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!” Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. ....The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore......And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.” (Revelation 18:20-24). </p><p>This echoes Jesus’ Temple diatribe against Jerusalem: Therefore, indeed, Isend you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth (Matthew 23:34-35). Due to this destruction, “the voice of the Bridegroom and Bride will no longer be heard.” This is a direct echo from Jeremiah 7:34 / 16:9 / 25:10– Jeremiah’s prediction of the BC 586 destruction of Jerusalem. (Also, in my Babylon book I adduce over 20 direct parallels between the book of Lamentations and Revelation, demonstrating that they are both about the fall of Jerusalem in their respective days). </p><p>Notice the focus on this martyrdom of “the apostles and prophets.” This alludes directly to Luke 11:49-50: </p><p>Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’ that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation. 4 Recall again Jesus’ words: “It is not possible that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.” </p><p>Thus, Jerusalem killed the prophets, Jesus, and his apostles and prophets. She was guilty of “the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world.” </p><p>Likewise, Babylon killed the prophets, Jesus, and Jesus’ apostles and prophets. She was guilty of “the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.” </p><p><u>Upon what hemeneutical and exegetical principle is it possible to delineate between Jerusalem and Babylon?</u> </p><p>Speaking of killing the apostles, Paul said: For I think, God has exhibited us, the apostles, last of all as men condemned to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to mankind (1 Cor. 4:9).</p><p>Paul argued that the apostles were set forth by God as “the last to die” or, “the last to be set forth to die” in the eschatological narrative. This means that the martyrdom of the apostles was to fill up the measure of suffering of the saints, and the cup of sin on the part of Israel. This is what Paul said in Colossians 1:24: I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church. </p><p>Paul was patently NOT saying Christ had not suffered enough. Paul was repeating what he said in Corinthians- the martyrdom of the apostles would fill up the measure of Israel’s internecine guilt for killing the saints– “fill up then the measure of your fathers’ guilt...behold, Isent to you apostles and prophets, some you shall crucify...” </p><p>This is what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, where he echoed Jesus’ Temple discourse, saying that in killing the prophets, Jesus, and Jesus’ apostles and prophets, Israel was filling the measure of her sin. Judgment was about to fall when Paul wrote, circa AD 50. </p><p>Likewise, Babylon killed the prophets, Jesus, and Jesus’ apostles and prophets. She was guilty of “the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.” And the judgment of Babylon was at hand, coming shortly and quickly: “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication” (Revelation 14:7-8). </p><p>No city other than OT Jerusalem ever did– or ever could do - what Revelation says “Babylon” did! Thus, “Babylon” of Revelation did not point forward to another Babylon! Revelation says not one 5 word about “What Jerusalem did, the future Babylon will do” because no city can ever do what Babylon did! </p><p>The evidence above- there is much, much more - is probative and powerful. Babylon was clearlyOT Jerusalem- unless Sergius can definitively prove otherwise. He has already admitted that he can’t. The problem in Revelation is very specific, historically delimited. The issue was not the timeless issue of “Christian suffering” throughout time. The text is about ONE CITY, that had killed the OT prophets, Jesus and the Lord’s apostles and prophets, indeed she was guilty of shedding all the blood of all the righteous. She truly had filled up the measure of her father’s guilt. From Jesus to Paul to John, the identity of that ONE CITY is clear and undeniable: That was Old Covenant Jerusalem. </p><p>The rules state that Sergius must address my arguments to the best of his knowledge. We shall see if he will address the evidence above.</p><p>---</p><p>My 1st Negative: <span style="background-color: white; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">In
this debate, Mr. Preston is to take the affirmative that the Book of Revelation
was definitively written before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and is
predictive of that event. I am to present in the negative a response to his
first affirmative. Mr. Preston’s quotes will be in bold and in quotation marks.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><b><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">“I affirm that Revelation was written prior to
the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and foretold that event. Understanding the
dating of Revelation is crucial to a proper interpretation of the Apocalypse
since the coming of the Lord (parousia), the judgment, and the resurrection
(the judgment of the living and the dead) all occur at the time of, in direct
connection to the judgment of “Babylon.” To have an anachronistic view of the
book produces a false interpretation”.</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">This debate is about
proving Revelation was definitively written before or after 70 CE. Whether one
believes the Revelation is scripture, given from God, inspired, or non-inspired
is irrelevant to dating definitively the book of Revelation. The debate is over
the dating of the religious text “Revelation of St. John” and whether or not it
can be dated historically at an early date or a later date. The manner of how
one interprets the religious text is a completely separate issue. If Mr.
Preston wished to debate on matters of interpretation of the religious text he
should have written the debate to be that. Since he did not, I will be sticking
to the established premise that was agreed upon and signed at the start of the
debate.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><b><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">“If it is established that ‘Babylon’ of
Revelation was the first century, Old Covenant Jerusalem, that fully,
definitively proves that Revelation was written prior to AD 70”.</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">Preston’s statement
here employs a formal fallacy called “affirming the consequent”, sometimes
called a “converse error” An example of this would be: If A is true then B is
true. It does not necessarily follow that if one allows “Babylon” to be identified
as “Old Covenant Jerusalem” that this definitively proves Revelation to be
written before 70 CE. There are multiple ways it could be written after. For
example, many New Testament bible critics and scholars accept works like Revelation
to be </span><i><span style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; color: #202122; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">vaticinium ex eventu<b>
</b></span></i><span style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; color: #202122; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">“prophecy from the event” or <i>post eventum</i> “</span><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">after the event”. This is evident in many
works like the Babylonian “Marduk Prophecy” and is employed by many secular
sources like how this technique is employed by Virgil for example in the <i>Aeneid<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><b><span style="color: #050505; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;">[1]</span></b></span></span></a>.</i>
For the sake of argument, a prophecy being written <i>post eventum </i>does not necessarily mean it has to be declared
“uninspired” though inspiration is not part of the debate. It is also argued,
though certainly not conclusive, that <i>vaticinium
ex eventu</i> is employed in works like Daniel, Matthew, Mark, and Luke<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #050505; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;">[2]</span></span></span></a>, and Revelation<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #050505; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;">[3]</span></span></span></a> by many biblical scholars,
textual critics, and historians<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn4" name="_ftnref4" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #050505; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;">[4]</span></span></span></a>. Preston says that <b>“to have an anachronistic view of the book
produces a false interpretation”. </b>This debate is again not over who has a
false or true interpretation of the Revelation of St. John.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">Preston identifies “Babylon”
as the “Old Covenant”. Which “Old Covenant” is it within the context of the 2</span><sup style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">nd</sup><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">
Temple Judaism Period? Is it the Pharisees’, Sadducees’, Essenes’, or the
Zealots’ take on the “Old Covenant” that is the “Old Covenant” in focus?
Secondly, Preston identifies “Babylon” as also being a city that kills the Old
Testament prophets and identifies the city of Jerusalem as being “Babylon”. Preston
uses Revelation 16 and Revelation 6 to try and justify his interpretation of
Revelation but as written before, interpretations vary on Revelation. One could
just as easily interpret Babylon as being Rome and many do so in the realm of
scholarship and academia such as the likes of Lyder Brun in his study of
Revelation 17</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn5" name="_ftnref5" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #050505; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;">[5]</span></span></span></a><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">
or A. Y. Collins arguing that Revelation 13 gives us imagery like that of
Daniel 7 and 8 that they argue are adapted in Revelation to depict the Roman
Empire as the beast of resurgent chaos rebelling against God Himself</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn6" name="_ftnref6" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #050505; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;">[6]</span></span></span></a><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">. The saints and prophets
mentioned in Revelation 16 also do not have to be interpreted as being merely
Old Testament prophets as Preston claims.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">Preston claims that </span><b style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">“In Revelation 16, there is no indication
that New Testament prophets are in view”.</b><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;"> This is again a matter of him
interpreting something that he wants it to be that does not necessarily have to
be the case. There is no reason one cannot interpret New Testament prophets
being a part of these martyrs who were slain for their testimony as Revelation
6 says. There were New Testament prophets such as St. John the Forerunner,
Agabus (Acts 11 and 21), Jude/Judah/Judas and Silas (Acts 15:32), Barnabas,
Simeon/Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manean, and Saul/Paul all taught and prophesied
(Acts 13), Phillip and his daughters also did too (Acts 8 and 21). There is no
indication that Peter and Paul have or have not already been martyred by Rome
yet in Revelation. The Revelation also makes no mention specifically of these
martyrs being solely Old Testament prophets so one could just as easily claim
all of those who had been martyred by anyone for Christ could be a part of
these saints and prophets who have been slain for their testimony who are under
God’s altar. It need not be merely Old Testament prophets as Preston wants to
interpret it to be. Preston quotes Acts and Ephesians to try and identify
Babylon as Jerusalem but again, this does not help determine the dating of
Revelation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">Preston argues that no
other city in the entire bible other than Jerusalem was ever accused of killing
God’s prophets. I assume he still means Old Testament prophets. We do see God’s
people, many of them faithful to Yahweh throughout the Old Testament do get persecuted,
face genocides, and even get martyred by foes other than those in Jerusalem who
oppose them. This includes the likes of Edom who Psalm 137 lists as a “daughter
of Babylon who art to be destroyed” for their part in the first destruction of
Jerusalem by the Babylonian Empire, Assyria in various literature</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn7" name="_ftnref7" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #050505; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;">[7]</span></span></span></a><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">, Persia under Xerxes</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn8" name="_ftnref8" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #050505; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;">[8]</span></span></span></a><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">, and Babylon itself all
being of those who do persecute and martyr the faithful. This does not include
just prophets. The Scriptures are pretty clear that it is not just prophets who
are to be avenged. Even before the New Testament begins we have the Maccabean
revolts where there is massive persecution and martyrdom of faithful people to
Yahweh against the Seleucid Empire and Antiochus IV</span><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn9" name="_ftnref9" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #050505; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;">[9]</span></span></span></a><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">Preston says that “</span><b style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">Jesus identifies Old Covenant Jerusalem as
the city guilty of that crime”. </b><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">Many biblical scholars do indeed show those
in power in Jerusalem were guilty of crimes against Old Testament prophets and
faithful people of God but Jesus calls them out also on the evil acts they are
guilty of in his current time as well as the apostles like St. Paul when he is
on trial with Festus and Herod. I do not believe this would be something to
dispute over but I suppose from a theological point one should ask why Preston
seems to be suggesting that the Old Covenant (Torah/Teaching) that Yahweh gave
to the people to become aware of their sin, repent, and manage their sin means
that Torah is something evil and equivalent to “Babylon”, i.e. all that opposes
God but I digress as this is all again a matter of interpretation and none of
this gives us any help in proving definitively that the Revelation was written at
an early or later date. Preston commits the fallacy of converse error claiming
that “</span><b style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">No pagan city killed an O.T.
prophet. No city after AD 70 could ever kill an OT prophet. Therefore, Babylon
of Revelation was OT Jerusalem. This means that since Revelation was predicting
the yet future, but imminent, destruction of Babylon/Jerusalem, the book of
Revelation was written before the fall of Jerusalem” </b><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">and again gives his
interpretation that the Old Covenant exists until 70 CE and that the New
Covenant he believes was not installed fully until 70 CE. Many scholars do not
agree with Don on this interpretation and would challenge it with their own
compelling arguments. He has as of yet given no internal evidence that definitively
shows us John’s Revelation was written before 70 CE. None of the Scripture he
gives us says anything about the book of Revelation when it was written, and
when he quotes Revelation itself, there is nothing internally found to gives us
any indication that it was written definitively before 70 CE. </span><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">Don states “</span><b style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">unless Sergius can prove that Babylon
breaks the heretofore unbroken chain of evidence, and demonstrate definitively
that Babylon of Revelation was some other city than that which the Bible, in
every occurrence identifies as the city that killed the OT prophets, then it is
undeniably true that Babylon of Revelation was Old Covenant Jerusalem”.</b><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;"> This
seems to be a hasty or faulty generalization going on here but it is also easy
to break this “</span><b style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">unbroken chain of
evidence”</b><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">. Tradition from Jewish and Christian sources do have some of the
Old Testament prophets being killed in Jerusalem but not all of them are and
they could not be as Scripture attests to, since many, if not most of the OT
prophets were in Exile away from Jerusalem when they died. Oral tradition has
Isaiah being killed by being sawn in half by the evil king of Jerusalem,
Manasseh of Judah. You can also find this in the </span><i style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">Ascension of Isaiah</i><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;"> where it is reported to have happened and is
part of Judean tradition. Micah is said to have been killed by Joram, the son
of King Ahab (we can presume in Israel). Amos died after being tortured by
Amaziah, the priest of Bethel, and then was mortally wounded by a club by
Amaziah’s son according to oral tradition. Zechariah son of Jehoiada is said to
have been stoned to death in the Temple Courtyard. These are some that were
killed in Jerusalem.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">These are some that
did not die in Jerusalem. Ezekiel is said to have died in Babylonia,
Mesopotamia. Jeremiah did not die in Jerusalem. He is said to have been stoned
to death by Jews at Taphnai in Egypt. Daniel did not die a martyrs’ death and
is reported to have died of natural causes and was buried with great honor in
the royal tombs of Babylon. Hosea is said to have died of natural causes as
well. Joel, Jonah, Nahum, Zechariah, and Malachi were said to have died in
peace according to oral tradition. Nathan and Ahijah seem to be of natural
cause. Joad strangely in 1 Kings 13 is attacked and killed by a lion. We know
nothing of Obadiah. Elijah and Enoch as we know are taken up into God’s realm.
Elisha dies in Jerusalem but seemingly dies of natural causes. Many of the
prophets did not get murdered nor martyred in Jerusalem at all. Another piece
of this statement continues to be troubling.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">Preston keeps saying “Old
Covenant Jerusalem” murdered the OT prophets. This seems to be verifiably false
as the Old Covenant as far as I am aware is Torah or the Teaching and the OT
prophets taught what they believe is the true Torah given by God Himself to His
people, whereas those who martyred and murdered these prophets faithful to
Torah did not follow and broke Torah (the Old Covenant) repeatedly and were
called to repentance.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><b><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">“Sergius admits that he cannot definitively
prove his proposition”… </span></b><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">For
whatever reason Preston decides to commit a misrepresentation. There was no
need for Mr. Preston to write this except to attempt a form of ad hominem
called poisoning the well for some odd reason which only discredits himself. My
objective in this part of the debate is to present a negative and Mr. Preston’s
is to, in the affirmative, prove that </span><b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt;">The
Book of Revelation was <u>definitively written prior to the destruction of
Jerusalem in AD 70 </u>and is predictive of that event. </span></b><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">My objective later
will be that, <b>while it is not definitive
(meaning that the book of Revelation could be written before 70 CE), the book
of Revelation was likely written in the reign of Domitian (AD 90s) after the
fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. </b>I would note that it seems Don is also attempting
to do a circumstantial ad hominem here as well. </span><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">Don continues with his interpretation being that Babylon is
Jerusalem and is where the Lord was crucified. He says that <b>“nothing could be more definitive”</b>. Preston
declares that <b>only one city is ever spiritually
designated as Sodom – Old Covenant Jerusalem.</b> This is blatantly false. If
one goes to</span><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;"> Zephaniah 2:8-9 it says quite clearly speaking of Moab and
Ammon that: “</span><span class="text"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">I have heard the reproach of Moab, and the
revilings of the children of Ammon, whereby they have reproached my people and
magnified themselves against their border.<b><sup> </sup></b>Therefore as
I live, saith the </span></span><span class="small-caps"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt; font-variant-caps: small-caps; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;">Lord</span></span><span class="text"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;"> of hosts, the God of
Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah,
even the breeding of nettles, and salt pits, and a perpetual desolation: the
residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall
possess them.” Here Moab and Ammon, two nations are described as Sodom and
Gomorrah. Jerusalem is not the only one who gets spiritually designated as
Sodom by the OT prophets. Preston’s statement is therefore false when he states
that “</span></span><b><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">BIBLICALLY, ONLY ONE CITY IS EVER SPIRITUALLY
DESIGNATED AS SODOM – OLD COVENANT JERUSALEM</span></b><b><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt;">”</span></b><b><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">.</span></b></p>
<p style="background: white;"><span style="color: #050505; font-size: 10.0pt;">Furthermore,
the Jews did not kill and murder all the apostles and prophets of Jesus. There
certainly are some that are martyred in Jerusalem such as James, son Alphaeus
of Acts 12 being martyred by Herod Agrippa. James, Son of Zebedee is said to
have been killed in Jerusalem but we also have it written in various histories
that Phillip is said to have died in Phrygia which is the province of Galatia,
Asia. Andrew was hanged on an olive tree in Patrae, Achaia (Greece) by St.
Hippolytus of Rome. It is believed that Bartholomew/Nathaniel died in Armenia
or in India where he was crucified. St. John was not martyred and died a death
of natural causes from what we know. Matthew is said to have died in Nad-Davar,
Ethiopia. Paul and Peter were both killed by Rome, not Jerusalem. Paul was
beheaded by Nero and Peter was crucified upside down by the order of Rome.
Judas Thaddeus or Jude is said to have been martyred by pagan priests in
Mesopotamia. St. Thomas is said to have preached and been martyred in what the
Romans called “India” to King Gondophernes, to which we have now found evidence
and coinages of this king and his existence<a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftn10" name="_ftnref10" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[10]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>. The work, <i>Acts of Thomas </i>confirms this as well to
have been the case. More New Testament saints seem to have died outside of
Jerusalem if we can trust the historical recordings then inside it. Furthermore,
many died by pagan believers rather than Jews who practiced Old Covenant
Judaism. Preston’s insistence upon his interpretation again falls flat and can
be considered falsified. His claim that <b>“Babylon
is the city that killed the apostles and prophets of Jesus- all the martyrs”</b>
is demonstrably false. Jerusalem did not kill all the apostles and prophets of
Jesus and it did not kill all the martyrs. Many times it is clear that it was
not even the Jews but Greco-Romans or even “Indians” that did the murders.
Preston continues with nothing more than his interpretation of scripture which
amounts to nothing that proves definitively that the composition of Revelation
is written before 70 CE, only that he believes it is based on his interpretation.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">In conclusion, Preston
gives nothing more than his subjective interpretation of what he believes the
Bible says. He covers nothing about the book itself except interpretations of
what he believes Revelation is about and while we should look at internal data,
nothing given to us shows us or proves to us definitively that the Revelation
was written before 70 CE. This subjective interpretation can be contested with
relative ease with various other interpretations as has been shown that some
scholars believe it is written in <i>vaticinium
ex eventu</i>. There have been shown in response, multiple and various ways
that Preston could be wrong about Babylon being Jerusalem and there were shown methods
of interpretation that would contradict Preston’s interpretations that many
scholars of the Bible, textual critics, and historians would all find legitimate
reasons to object to. It is clear we have shown multiple statements Preston
makes that contradict his claims about “Scripture” and some of his statements
here have been falsified even though he claims he cannot be falsified. He has
provided zero historical evidence to help bolster his claim that he can without
a doubt conclusively and definitively prove his claim that Revelation was
written by St. John before 70 CE. This ends my first response in the negative
with Don K Preston.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br /></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">Bibliography: [In case
it doesn’t show up on the document in the footnotes for some reason]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 10pt;">A. Y. Collins. Combat
Myth. 161-174.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">J.J. O’Hara, Death and
the Optimistic Prophecy in Vergil’s Aeneid (2014). Pp. 128-129.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">KLAUCK, HANS-JOSEF.
“Do They Never Come Back? ‘Nero Redivivus’ and the Apocalypse of John.” The
Catholic Biblical Quarterly 63, no. 4 (2001): 683–98.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/43727253.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Kloppenborg, John S.
“Evocatio Deorum and the Date of Mark.” Journal of Biblical Literature 124, no.
3 (2005): 419–50. https://doi.org/10.2307/30041033. S.G.F. Brandon, “The Date
of the Markan Gospel”. NTS 7 (1960). 126-41.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Lyder Brun, Die
romischen Kaiser in der Apokalypse” ZNW26 (1927) 128-151. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">MOLONEY, FRANCIS J.
“‘CONSTRUCTING JESUS’ THE SON OF MAN.” The Catholic Biblical Quarterly 75, no.
4 (2013): 719–38. http://www.jstor.org/stable/43728295; John J Collins, “The
Son of Man in First Century Judaism,” NTS 38 (1992) 448-466; Benjamin E
Reynolds, The Apocalyptic Son of Man in the Gospel of John (WUNT 2/249;
Tubingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2008) 27-85.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">See the Book of Judith
where a Jewish widow saves Israel from oppression from an Assyrian general. One
can read the Book of Esther where Queen Esther thwarts a genocide of her people
and forms the core story of the Jewish festival of Purim.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">See the martyrdom of
faithful Eliezer and the mother with her seven sons in 2 Maccabees 7.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><br clear="all" />
<hr align="left" size="1" width="33%" />
<!--[endif]-->
<div id="ftn1">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a> J.J.
O’Hara, Death and the Optimistic Prophecy in Vergil’s Aeneid (2014). Pp.
128-129.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn2">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">MOLONEY, FRANCIS J. “‘CONSTRUCTING JESUS’ THE SON OF MAN.” <i>The
Catholic Biblical Quarterly</i> 75, no. 4 (2013): 719–38. <span class="MsoHyperlink"><a href="http://www.jstor.org/stable/43728295">http://www.jstor.org/stable/43728295</a></span>;
John J Collins, “The Son of Man in First Century Judaism,” NTS 38 (1992)
448-466; Benjamin E Reynolds, <i>The
Apocalyptic Son of Man in the Gospel of John </i>(WUNT 2/249; Tubingen: Mohr
Siebeck, 2008) 27-85.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn3">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">KLAUCK, HANS-JOSEF. “Do They Never Come Back? ‘Nero
Redivivus’ and the Apocalypse of John.” <i>The Catholic Biblical Quarterly</i>
63, no. 4 (2001): 683–98. http://www.jstor.org/stable/43727253.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn4">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref4" name="_ftn4" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[4]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Kloppenborg, John S. “Evocatio Deorum and the Date of Mark.”
<i>Journal of Biblical Literature</i> 124, no. 3 (2005): 419–50. <span class="MsoHyperlink"><a href="https://doi.org/10.2307/30041033">https://doi.org/10.2307/30041033</a></span>.
S.G.F. Brandon, “The Date of the Markan Gospel”. NTS 7 (1960). 126-41.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn5">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref5" name="_ftn5" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[5]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
Lyder Brun, Die romischen Kaiser in der Apokalypse” ZNW26 (1927) 128-151. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn6">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref6" name="_ftn6" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[6]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a> A.
Y. Collins. Combat Myth. 161-174.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn7">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref7" name="_ftn7" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[7]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
See the Book of Judith where a Jewish widow saves Israel from oppression from
an Assyrian general.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn8">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref8" name="_ftn8" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[8]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
One can read the Book of Esther where Queen Esther thwarts a genocide of her
people and forms the core story of the Jewish festival of Purim.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn9">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref9" name="_ftn9" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[9]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a>
See the martyrdom of faithful Eliezer and the mother with her seven sons in 2
Maccabees 7.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="ftn10">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="file:///C:/Users/Lance%20Conley/Downloads/Responding%20to%201st%20Affirmative%20of%20Preston.docx#_ftnref10" name="_ftn10" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[10]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></a> I
can provide this documentation if need be. It has been established as
historical fact that this king existed (this was not always seen to be the case
nor established as fact until quite recently).</p></div></div>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-47299522946231231832021-12-10T16:54:00.004-08:002021-12-10T18:26:56.843-08:00Debating Don Preston: Q & A Section of The DebateFor this debate against Don Preston we were to give 10 questions and answer to the best of our ability. <div><br /></div><div>Don's Questions and My Answers to Don's Questions: Questions in Bold. </div><div><b style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></b></div><div style="text-indent: 0px;"><span style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; font-weight: bold;">Please
identify for me, as clearly and specifically as possible, the identity of
Babylon in Revelation.</span></span></div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">2 Esdras
(some call it 4 Esdras) Chapter 3:1-31 and 2 Baruch Chapters 10, 11, and 67 all
refer to “Babylon” and it is clear from those texts to be about Rome. 1 Peter
5:13 implies that Peter is in “Babylon” which makes it extremely likely to be
referencing itself to Rome and the Roman Empire in general. This is not limited
to just the Roman city (Dea Roma as she is personified to be by Rome) of the first
century however. It appears to represent all those in the world who are still
outside of the Church and alienated from God. This same language is used in
places like Amos 7 where it speaks of Agag or Gog, who is called the King of
Locusts in it. In Amos, this Gog is the enemies of God that the faithful make
and deal with along their way to salvation and following God. Babylon came to
represent that which opposes God, an ancient evil much like the demonic beings
that have been in opposition to God from the beginning of Genesis. Ezekiel
38-39 does this as well where it mentions Gog. Gog is in the land of Magog
which has three places: Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. Earlier in Ezekiel it is
mentioned that the cities of Rosh and Meshech had been destroyed and judged
already. Because we find Gog to be a locust king in Amos 7:1 and Joel 2:20 has
an army of locusts from the north as a plague to come upon Israel, Ezekiel is
making an obvious reference through symbolism to King Nebuchadnezzar but it is
also not just one particular person in mind. Just like Gog is not one
particular person, neither is “Babylon” as Peter and John will use the term. It
can represent one used by God for judgment as it is with King Nebuchadnezzar
(even one who is evil). Gog can represent anyone from King Nebuchadnezzar,
Alexander the Great, Nero, Domitian, etc.... a King who seeks to dominate;
an archetype. In Ezekiel's time, this would be King of Babylon but since this
is giving a bigger picture here and represents all empires and tyrants who have
made themselves enemies of God, and since these cities were already destroyed
in Ezekiel’s time when he is giving the prophecy, it makes it clear these are the
Satanic forces being represented here. It is a type, pattern, and archetype. So
Gog and Magog represent all enemies of God and not about one specific person or
nation. The message here is that people like this who are evil come and go and
they eventually, no matter how strong or powerful will all fall to
God. Babylon is used more or less the same and this finds itself all the
more evident since in Revelation 20 John will talk about Gog and Magog. What is
the purpose of these visions? “Babylon” is beautiful and may look great but in
the end, Gog will not inherit the earth. God and His faithful people will
ultimately do this. The meek, not these powerful entities who work for Satan
and opposing forces against God, will inherit. Every nation will end but God
will reign supreme. His Holy City, the City of God shall not fall and
ultimately all nations will worship the Lord. We see this is the picture in
mind in Rev 20-22. Jesus has already won. We have been in the End Times since
the Resurrection. God judged in the Cross. He has already defeated the enemies.
Now the devil has a limited time before it is all over for him and his
followers. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">2.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></b><!--[endif]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">What
is your evidence – from the biblical record found in Revelation – that Domitian
persecuted the Church? <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">One cannot
conclusively determine an answer to this question from any record biblically as
Revelation doesn’t give that information to us for any emperor.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">3.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></b><!--[endif]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">Was
Domitian EVER, at any time, in a partnership, with ANYONE, to persecute the
Church?<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">Yes. The
Roman Empire, the beginning of Reform Judaism after 70 CE, those who worshipped
the Roman pantheon of gods like Jupiter/Zeus, Artemis, etc. and those who
opposed Christianity and their practices all worked in tandem with Domitian
historically, directly and indirectly. This would also include the demonic
entities (the fallen angels - false gods) working and controlling the Roman
Empire and the Roman Emperor. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">4.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></b><!--[endif]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">Is
the New Creation foretold in Revelation 21-22 the same New Creation prophesied
in Isaiah 65-66? <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">After the
Resurrection, Ascension of Christ, and the Christian Pentecost, we are already
taking part in the New Creation and New Heavens and New Earth in part. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">5.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></b><!--[endif]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">Is
the avenging of the blood of the martyrs foretold in Revelation 6, 18-20, etc.
the same avenging of the martyrs foretold by Jesus in Matthew 23, Luke 18, etc.?<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">No.
Revelation 6 would include all saints of God who have been slain for the Word
of God. The judgement of 70 CE is just a judgment put upon apostate Jews who
have chosen to reject the Messiah. It would make no sense for God to judge just
Jews when He has made clear throughout scripture that He will judge the entire
world (which includes Gentiles and their nations) and establish absolute
justice and righteousness and put all things back into order. This cannot
happen until all the Jews and Gentiles have come out of Exile and been brought
into the Restoration as the Church - New People of God (Romans 11). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">6.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></b><!--[endif]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">Have
ALL of Israel’s feast days – and what they foreshadowed and typified – been
completely fulfilled and therefore, do they stand nullified and no longer valid
as shadows of “things to come”? <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">This
question does not make sense. The Torah has been fulfilled by Christ and the
New Covenant installed at the Cross. This does not nullify Torah nor abolish
Torah. We do not go back to Torah if we are in the New Covenant because it
cannot save us. The Torah’s purpose was to make the observer of it realize the
depravity of their sinfulness and to help Israel and all who joined Israel to
manage their sin until the Messiah came to establish a New Covenant with those
who are faithful to Him because He was and did more than manage their sin. He
makes us righteous. After the Cross, Christ does not abolish the Torah, but
through the Cross, He supersedes and surpasses it. We see clearly after the
Resurrection of Christ that the apostles hold strictly to the Levitical law in
Acts 15 which forbids forcing Gentiles who enter Israel from forcing dietary
laws on them and from having them circumcised. Because they are circumcised by
baptism and possess the Holy Spirit they do not require it when they become
part of Israel (the Church) of God (Gal 6:16). The Gentiles were simply called to
abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and to
flee from sexual immorality (all part of Levitical Law in the Holiness Code for
all who live in Israel – even Gentiles). This still applies today as well. The
New Covenant still has a circumcision: baptism is the new circumcision.
Christians still celebrate the Day of Atonement but in a different fashion
because Christ was and is the ultimate atonement for sin at the Cross. At the
foundation of Western soteriology is often the unbiblical and false idea that
keeping Torah perfectly grants eternal life and that it is not possible for any
human person to do so except for Christ - thereby earning eternal life for all
human persons. This ideology contradicts Scripture at several points as they
state several times there are people who have kept Torah perfectly and are
blameless. When Scriptures describe someone keeping all Torah, it is the whole
Torah - all five books of the Scriptures. When St. Paul refers to the ‘nomos’,
he refers to the entirety of these texts, not only certain moral commandments
that would later be extracted from it. King David is said to have walked
in obedience to God and done what is right in his eyes by keeping the decrees
and commands (1 Kings/3 Kingdoms 11:38). It contrasts blameless David to evil Jeroboam. Paul
himself says he was “blameless according to the Torah,” and did so while
murdering early Christians (Phil 3:6). Paul implies that there were
Gentiles outside of Israel who did not possess Torah but had done all righteous
deeds required by Torah, serving as their own instructors (Rom 2:14). Anyone
familiar with David’s life knows he did not live a life of sinless
perfection. Paul could not have done so either speaking of his blamelessness
according to Torah right after talking about persecuting the Church. It is
doubtful there were a group of pagans who never sinned. Rather it is a statement
of those who kept the whole Torah, not those who never violated it. When
an Israelite sinned, repented, offered the required sin offering, and participated
in the annual Day of Atonement, he kept Torah. The worship of God by
Israel, including the sacrificial system, was not some sort of add-on or
appendix to the “law” because God knew people couldn’t follow it. Rather,
the worship commanded by the Torah is the central core of the Torah. All other
commandments of the Torah governing moral life, cleansing places, and
agricultural practices are all based around the establishment and maintenance
of purity and holiness that is necessary for Yahweh, the God of Israel to
remain present with his people for worship. The Torah does not include a
system for managing the sins of the people; rather, the Torah is a system for
managing the sins of the people to allow for the transformative worship of
the true God. Christ, in fulfilling perfectly the Torah, not only kept the
so-called “moral law” but all of the Torah, including the sacrificial worship
of the temple and the feasts despite not having sins of which to repent. Christ
was not baptized for the remission of his non-existent sins, but was baptized to
fulfill all righteousness/justice (Matt 3:15). This understanding from
Scripture is problematic for Western perspectives because of the presuppositions
described above that imply these people “earned” eternal life through Torah
apart from Christ. This misunderstanding of the law is not the only faulty
presupposition. Even more major is the unbiblical idea that the keeping of the
Torah brings some merit and earns eternal life. Galatians 3 is a
theological assault on this entire ideology. The promise of theosis, of
eternal divine life, is a promise which was made to Abraham based on Abraham’s
faithfulness and his walking before God in righteousness (Gal 3:6-8). The Torah
is not a long list of added conditions interpolated into the covenant with
Abraham (v. 15-18). The Torah never had anything to do with eternal life and
the kingdom of God. It served another purpose. “If a law had been given
which could give life, then righteousness would be by the law” (v. 21).
St. Paul’s conditional statement presents a counter-factual. The Torah given
cannot give life. If God had, Paul says humanity wouldn’t be able to handle it.
Rather, the promises given to Abraham of eternal divine life are inherited by
Christ and those baptized into Christ become co-heirs of that salvation (v.
27-29). God created humanity for theosis to share His life with human beings.
This would happen in the fullness of time when the Son would become incarnate
uniting human nature to the divine nature in his person. The rebellion of
hostile spiritual powers, a rebellion in which humanity joined and participated
in as described in the first eleven chapters of Genesis, placed obstacles
between humanity and the receipt of God’s promises, though those promises were
reiterated to Abraham following humanity’s falls. Christ defeats these enemies
and removes these obstacles. Those who have kept the whole Torah still die.
Christ has defeated death and saved them from it. Even those who have kept the
Torah will still live in a world subjected currently to the power and
corruption of sin, which power over us Christ has destroyed and which
corruption has been cleansed by Christ’s blood. Even those who have kept the
whole Torah still lived in a world dominated by hostile spiritual powers,
powers and principalities in the heavenly places given dominion over humans
through their sin. Christ has judged and defeated them, taking all power and
authority in heaven and on earth for himself (Matt 28:18). God does not
save humanity from Himself or one of His attributes. He saves humanity from
itself and the consequences of its sinful rebellion. While only those who are
in Christ share in his eternal divine life, the results of these victories over
sin, death, and the fallen powers are experienced by all of humanity, such that
St. Paul can say that “Christ is the savior of all men, especially those who
believe” (1 Tim 4:10). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">7.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span></b><b style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">Is
it necessary for us to possess a MSS of Revelation documented to have been
written prior to AD 70, to be able to prove that the book of Revelation was
written before AD 70?</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">If one
wishes to DEFINITIVELY prove that Revelation was written before 70 CE it is
necessary to provide documentation of said manuscripts and to go off of known
historical data to try and come to that conclusion or not. As of yet, there is
nothing we possess that will DEFINITIVELY prove Revelation was written before
70 CE. The oldest copies (fragments) of Revelation that we have currently are
Papyrus Fragments P18 (200-400 CE), P47 (200-300 CE), P98 (150-250 CE), and
P115 (200-400 CE). This does not mean we won’t ever find one that can be dated
to the reign of Nero or Vespasian but as of now, there have been no manuscripts
nor papyrus fragments that we have in our possession from that time period.
What we do have are various historical sources that posit the Revelation to
have been written in the reign of Domitian. However the same can be said as
well of trying to DEFINITIVELY date Revelation in the reign of Domitian as well
as we do not possess a manuscript that is definitively written in the reign of
Domitian either so it remains INCONCLUSIVE. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">8.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></b><!--[endif]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">At
what point of time, and with what events were the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24 fulfilled
and the 70 weeks terminated?<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">Daniel 9
has in view Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection when He puts an end to sin
and makes reconciliation for all iniquity. The events of 70 CE may be in view
here as well. God allows Jerusalem to be rebuilt and a further set of years are
given for it. Jesus is the Most Holy referred to here. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">9.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></b><!--[endif]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">Is
it your personal conviction that external, non-biblical, historical evidence is
equal to or more authoritative, more probative, for establishing the date of
Revelation than the internal evidence of the book? <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">My
personal convictions are irrelevant to the historical dating of Revelation. It
is either written in the reign of Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellus, Vespasian,
Titus, Domitian, Nerva, or Trajan. I do not personally hold to sola scriptura
being Eastern Orthodox but even from the Protestant perspective sola scriptura
does not disregard external, extra-biblical [books that are not the agreed upon
Protestant bible canon], non-biblical (secular), secular or patristic historical
evidence and data that exists for usage in understanding Scripture better. I
hold Scripture to be authoritative and true. “External, non-biblical,
historical evidence” is still evidence and evidence is the available body of
facts or information that indicate whether a belief or proposition is true or
valid. Revelation as far as I am aware does not tell us what time it is written
in so establishing any date for Revelation with internal evidence would mean
basing a date off of an interpretation as far as I can tell. This argument if
done, could be potentially seen as a circular reasoning or the “just because”
fallacy. Example: Revelation is written in an early date because I interpret it
this way. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">10.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></b><!--[endif]--><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">Is
the judgment of the living and the dead – i.e. the resurrection of Revelation
11:15 the same as the resurrection of Daniel 12:2? If not, please document the
difference from scripture. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">Daniel
11-12 have to do mostly with Antiochus IV and the Maccabean Revolt. However,
just as in Amos and Ezekiel with Gog and Magog, there can be argued something
deeper – that being that God will deal with all of his enemies and bring
justice for all who have been oppressed and persecuted. At the Resurrection of
the Dead and subsequently this is the Final Judgment and the 2nd Coming, some
will rise to eternal joy and others eternal shame. All enemies of Christ will
fall to the Lord ultimately and we will all, if faithful in persecution and
trials and tribulations, be part of His Kingdom at the 2nd Coming and the
Resurrection of the dead.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">Is it the
same as Revelation 11? I’m not quite so sure it is. As in Revelation 10:5-7,
the proclamation is made that the fullness of time has arrived: the kingdoms of
this world are subject to the Kingdom of God. Christ in John 12 says “Now is
the judgment of this world: now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And
I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself”. This He said,
signifying by what death He would die. Christ’s Crucifixion is a judgement on
this world. It is also the beginning of the promise of Restoration from Exile.
The Crucifixion is a Day of the Lord. John makes that clear. As in John 12: the
judgment of the world and the casting out of Satan is effected by the
crucifixion. The voices state in Revelation 11 that this has already occurred
once and for all, at Calvary. The twenty-four elders then concelebrate the
consummation of God’s Kingdom in this heavenly liturgy that carries a message
of consolation to the Church. The Roman Empire is likely in view here primarily
but due to the rich symbolism here, it is more than just Rome itself but the
spiritual powers that oppose God. Are these the same as Daniel 12? Inconclusive.
I don’t see this having to do with the destruction of Jerusalem, nor is it
necessary do I believe to require the Temple of Jerusalem to still be standing
as Revelation makes quite clear in Revelation 11 that John is seeing a heavenly
vision here, not one of earth. Secondly, Revelation says clearly that “the Lord
God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple and the Lamb is the Light (Rev
21:22-23). Christ is the New Temple and the Light of the World.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif;">----</span></p><p class="MsoNormal">My Questions to Don & Don's Answers to My Questions: </p></div><div><b>Theological question: How are saints who you claim are spiritually dead before 70 CE under the altar of God in Revelation 6:9-11? If they are spiritually dead and still in sin and separated from God because they are in sin and spiritually dead, then why are they there in God’s realm and in his presence and how are they interacting if they are those who “were slain for the Word of God”? They clearly are told to wait for their time of avengement so as to my knowledge of Preston’s theological paradigm, they cannot have experienced the resurrection of the dead in any form until 70 CE. Explain in detail how this is all to be answered and dealt with.</b></div><div><b><br /></b></div><div>In one sense this question is not relevant to the discussion of the dating of Revelation, and therefore a violation of the rules. Nonetheless, Revelation says that salvation would come at the time of the destruction of Babylon (Rev. 19:1-2). It says that at that time, entrance into the Most Holy Place would be opened (Revelation 15:8–> 16:19ff). That is when the kingdom, the resurrection would come as well (Revelation 11:15f). Since these things are true, it means that salvation would not be– was not– a fully accomplished reality until the judgment of “Babylon.” The early church was given the charismatic gifts of the Spirit to guarantee the redemption of the purchased possession. The need for the guarantee means that the redemption was not fully in place, but rather, that “he who has begun a good work in your will complete it at the Day of the Lord” (Phil. 1:6). </div><div><br /></div><div><b>Name who you believe are the identities of the kings, the beast, the 10 horns, and the whore of Babylon. Is Babylon Rome or Jerusalem or perhaps even a culmination of both?</b></div><div><br /></div><div>Julius was the first caesar / emperor, making “the one who is” to be Nero. Babylon was none other than Old Covenant, first century Babylon. Thus, the beast was Rome, and Jerusalem – the harlot, adulterous bride - partnered with Rome to persecute the saints. </div><div><br /></div><div><b>Domitian declares himself “Lord and God” during his life according to both Suetonius, Dio Cassius, and Pliny. His coinages have him as Zeus/Jupiter and his son Titus as the son of god who holds 7 stars. Are there any other emperors before Domitian that do anything like this or have a coinage minted like this? Recall as you answer this that worship of the “genius” of the emperor is not the same as worshipping the emperor. Also recall in history that Nero likens himself to Apollo and Sol but never deifies himself as emperor and actually is recorded to have resisted calls to be given deification while alive.<br /></b><br /></div><div>Domitian’s own chroniclers Statius and Quintillian said that he rejected and refused any serious worship. We also know that Nero accepted worship (proskynēsas) from Tiridates. <br /><br /></div><div><b>John is said to have died in Ephesus under the reign of Trajan and brought back from exile by Emperor Nerva. If John wrote the Revelation before 70 CE but died in the reign of Trajan, why is there then no historical record whatsoever of John or even his disciples or generally speaking, anyone saying this prophetic work was about the destruction of Jerusalem and fulfilled in 70 CE?</b></div><div><br /></div><div>Robinson and others note that Nero sent John into exile. It was not until the fourth century that some of the claims that you are citing were made. And while he was not speaking of Revelation specifically, nonetheless, Eusebius said that it could be said that Christ came in flaming fire at the judgment of Jerusalem. </div><div><br /></div><div><b>Domitian is the first historically documented Imperial Cult for Ephesus to have and the first neokorate to be established for an emperor still alive. Why does Nero have no neokorate ever dedicated to him in any of the Asia Minor cities nor provinces? <br /></b><br />Don's Answer: No answer.. <br /><br /><b>Why would Nero leave John, a Christian leader of the Church alive and exile him to Patmos and not exile Peter and Paul as well but instead have them executed and John alive when we know from virtually all Roman historians and Christian witnesses that Nero had most of his opposition to him executed and exile was something he did on a rare occasion? Recall that Nero used Christians as scapegoats for the Great Fire and Roman propaganda made it out that Christians, for not worshipping the pantheon of gods and goddesses, believed they would disrupt and destroy Rome as they knew it and cause famine, plague, war, etc. if all in Rome didn’t partake in their pagan worship as a whole. <br /></b><br /></div><div>Where do we find the evidence that Nero killed most of his enemies? We do know that he sent several people, including one of his wives, into exile. Again, Robinson, Gentry and others take note that Nero sent John into exile, at an early time.<br /><br /></div><div><b>Knowing that:<br />1) Domitian declared himself “Lord and God”<br />2) Domitian had twenty four chanters at all times singing praises to him in worship<br />3) Domitian had the chanters and all people be forced to attend the Domitian Games and wear white robes at all times during this event which also involved them worshipping him along with the chanters<br />4) Domitian was the first to have a neokorate established for himself while still alive in Asia Minor’s city of Ephesus<br />5) Domitian had statues put up everywhere around Rome and Asia Minor, including a huge statue in Ephesus at his temple and one when you entered into the port city of Ephesus that all could see when they pulled their boats into shore and would have to give tribute to when they entered<br />6) Domitian had coinages minted declaring he and his son Titus (not to be confused with Emperor Titus) were actual deities - one of these coins bore Domitian as Jupiter/Zeus Incarnate in this life and is not his genius. The other coinage is of his wife Domitia with the inscription DIVI CAESAR MATRI and DIVI CAESARIS MATER or Mother of the Divine Caesar and on the reverse is his deceased infant son Titus sitting on a zoned globe holding 7 stars (we would call them the 7 planets today) in his hands and the inscription “DIVUS CAESARIMP DOMITIANIF, or “the Divine Caesar, son of the Emperor Domitian”.<br />7) You as a Christian in Ephesus would have to bow down and give tribute and worship the Image of Domitian who is declaring himself Zeus/Jupiter and established a Temple to his deity at his Neokorate<br />8) In Pergamum was the Temple of Zeus (mentioned in Revelation as the Throne of Satan in 2:13) which almost certainly would have been also used as a place to also worship Domitian who had declared himself to be the incarnation of Jupiter/Zeus while alive.<br />With all these facts in mind, can you admit the possibility of a later date and, though you disagree, can see how these do indeed bear some very striking similarities to Revelation 1:13-16; Rev 2:18; Rev 4:4 (the 24 elders all in white worshipping God), and Revelation 13 (imperial worship) where people are forced to worship the dragon’s beast and his image to buy and sell and how does the reign of Nero compare to this knowing he didn’t declare himself to be a god while living and that while brutal, his persecution was short lived and localized to mostly just the Roman capitol itself as he used Christians like St. Peter and Paul for scapegoats for the cause of the Great Fire? <br /></b><br /></div><div>No, I do not see this. As noted, Nero accepted worship. Nero was also called “the beast.” Nero had statues of himself erected – not to mention statues of his horse! The situation in Pergamum was a problem with the Judaizers which, contra your conclusions, indicates an early date. The Gematria of Revelation 13 seems to fit Nero far better than Domitian- in spite of Aune’s works. You are assuming that Domitian persecuted the church, but you have given no proof. But this is what must be proven. There is a growing sentiment among scholars that Domitian NEVER persecuted the church.</div><div><br /><b>No other book of the New Testament is as clearly dated by the fathers of the Church as Revelation and established to be written in the latter date and reign of Domitian. Why are there virtually little to no source material for us to historically place the Revelation as being written pre-70 CE and why should we doubt multiple sources attesting to it being written in the reign of Domitian? <br /></b><br /></div><div>The late dating of Revelation to the time of Domitian essentially begins with a highly questionable and debatable intepretation of Iranaeus found in Eusebius. John Behr rejects the claim that Iranaeus was claiming a late date for the Apocalypse. The sources you cite below begin with Iranaeaus and those after him are not independent sources but merely repeating what he said.</div><div> <br /><b>Why do we seem to have no historical sources for John having written Revelation before 70 CE but do have historical sources for John having written Revelation during Domitian’s reign instead by Polycrates of Rome, Irenaeus of Lyons, Hegesippus the Nazarene, Tertullian, Eusebius, and even is suggested that this is what happened in the 2nd CE work from what were probably Docetism believers, Acts of John, Chapters 1-17?<br /></b><br /></div><div>The sources that you cite are not early sources– in the main. And what you cite is highly debatable. Furthermore, those sources were not inspired, and in many instances, the men themselves were eccentric, Iranaeus among them. There is some historical evidence for the early dating.</div><div> <br /><b>Can you provide any historical evidence beyond what your interpretation of Revelation is that gives any credence to Revelation being written before 70 CE? Please note that I am not asking you to try and discredit authors like Irenaeus and/or other writers here. I am simply asking for historical evidence that can lend some credibility to the early dating of Revelation. <br /></b><br /></div><div>Clement of Alexandria said that inspiration ended in the days of Nero. (He, and other patristics, also believed that the seventy weeks of Daniel 9 ended at that time, which would agree with that claim, ie. “Vision and prophecy” were finished (sealed up by fulfillment) by the end of the seventy weeks– which was not at the cross). The irony here is that you decry the “interpretation of internal evidence” while appealing to “historical evidence” as if that “historical evidence” needs no interpretation. In reality historical evidence demands interpretation even more so than the internal evidence. I reject your premise and the focus of my discussion will be on demonstrating that the early date is demanded by the internal evidence. The fact is that if a person employs proper exegesis, with the right hermeneutic, and the application of proper logic, that the interpretation of the internal evidence is the final word in determining the dating of Revelation. My focus in this debate will be to establish that early dating by the correct interpretation of that internal evidence. <br />--- </div><br />Don did not answer question #1 correctly and tried to lie, claiming it was a violation to Hodge’s rules... This was odd since if we went by that logic I’d have to argue that his questions #4, 5, 6, 9, and 10 were also violations as my personal interpretations for the Revelation are irrelevant to the debate over whether it is written in 70 CE or after. <div><br /></div><div>To summarize this: as one can clearly read, </div><div>Question #1, Don has not actually answered the question with anything other than a “non answer” answer. This answer was not satisfactory and he never did redo the answer when asked, therefore breaking the rules he agreed to uphold (and he made the rules). </div><div><br />Question #2, Don named the kings, the beast and the harlot. He did not name the 10 horns but later made a comment that he did not know so I, to be charitable, just said I would accept an "I don't know" for that part.</div><div><br />Question #3 I had to try and fact check him on this. He never really sourced what he said. Tiradates never worshipped Nero but he did, as all Romans did, worship the Roman emperor’s genius.</div><div><br />Question #4 he names that John AT Robinson says this happened under Nero… a 20th century New Testament Anglican scholar... who doesn't give a definitive answer about the dating (he gives arguments but this is not definitive). This is all I’m given to go off of. Then he mentios Eusebius saying something about Matthew 24 without sourcing it and you're left wondering if he understands the question.</div><div><br />Obvious to the reader, Don never answers #5 and when pressed on this, he refused to answer it, ergo breaking the rules he agreed to do.</div><div><br /></div><div>Question #6 note that Don never really gave an answer. Nero mostly has his Exiles later executed due to paranoia according to Roman historians (Dio Cassius, Tacitus, Suetonius to name off a few). Robinson and gentry are mentioned but no source material except their name…</div><div><br />Question #7 is a semi-answer. Nero accepted worship of his genius as all emperors did. All emperors did have statues of themselves but I’m looking for a source and Don gives none. I wonder if Don has confused Caligula’s horse senator legend with Nero here but I could be mistaken. This statement about Pergamum Don admitted to being his private interpretation of Revelation as scripture which is irrelevant to this debate. We need facts.</div><div><br />Don says <b>“The Gematria of Revelation 13 seems to fit Nero far better than Domitian- in spite of Aune’s works.” </b>This is something... I guess... <b>“You are assuming that Domitian persecuted the church, but you have given no proof. But this is what must be proven.</b>” Don forgets that we are not in the debate yet and that we are asking questions. <br /><b><br /></b></div><div><b>“There is a growing sentiment among scholars that Domitian NEVER persecuted the church.”<br /></b><br /></div><div>The majority consensus is still latter date but Domitian’s reign is not seen so much as a major persecution but rather much like when Americans today say they are all being persecuted even when their nation is run mostly by self proclaiming to be Christians as an example to use (I won’t argue whether that is accurate or not). </div><div><br />On question #8, this is closer to an answer though Eusebius quotes Hegesippus right as he is also using Iranaeus to conclude his points about St. John. Acts of John is not dependent from Irenaeus. It is written by a Docetist sect.</div><div><br />Question #9. I didn’t ask whether the sources are inspired. Inspiration is irrelevant to dating the revelation historically speaking. If there are historical sources for the early date Don should have given them here instead of not done so.</div><div><br />Question #10. I note some fallacies being made here that would oppose Hodge. I ask for historical evidence that can lend some credibility to the early dating of Revelation and Don makes a comment about Clement of Alexandria that was false when I fact checked it. He also proceeded to make a fallacy accusing me of publicly denouncing interpretations of internal evidence and then appealing to historical evidence as if that’s all I will do in this debate or something. This is already a violation of the rules. </div><div><br /><b>“I reject your premise and the focus of my discussion will be on demonstrating that the early date is demanded by the internal evidence.”<br />“The fact is that if a person employs proper exegesis, with the right hermeneutic, and the application of proper logic, that the interpretation of the internal evidence is the final word in determining the dating of Revelation. My focus in this debate will be to establish that early dating by the correct interpretation of that internal evidence.”</b></div><div><b><br /></b>This debate began to go as I thought it would. Don was going to base his entire written debate on his private opinion and interpretation and this debate would end up with him not proving his point as a fact like he declared he would in his affirmative and would ultimately be all about what his subjective interpretation of Revelation is instead of debating with actual facts.</div>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-73947169196317555692021-12-10T16:14:00.005-08:002021-12-10T18:26:24.268-08:00Debating Don Preston: (Under a Burner Account Sergius Bale)<p>Originally I had set up an alternate account on Facebook to use it to watch and document and investigate the full preterists who had blocked me. The usual was done: set up a persona and integrate oneself into the groups you're trying to investigate. For this account I dubbed Sergius Bale, I claimed to be a native Greek speaker and claimed to be a PHD in history teaching in Austrailia. </p><p>Don was immediately hostile to this account the moment any questions were asked and raised that he might not have a good answer to. As soon as Don Preston figured out this burner account was claiming to be a PHD, Don BEGGED to have a debate with Sergius Bale (me). I originally declined as is shown in the pictures below. The second time I decided to agree to this debate. There was no rule that you couldn't debate a troll account or about hiding your identity so I decided to go through with this and ultimately, to embarass Don Preston who has been running from debating me for years, I decided after the debate was finished I would reveal who I really was since he never once did any investigating to find out if I really was a university professor born in Greece with a PHD... This is that debate. </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEicOWswkHYJ9cVZEW0oHkymbZg8hJACQjpz7iiHC__rOshobltUgnW2ILbo8HF_xRIZDvsNbVWjG0Qu_k64KAGqWClzQ7944x7_0CQ9RyKL9UEgIT2JxuhoMM5_PbPOD90BhdyZD_aGTOhAJNr0V5_XEAMWVqwzLBDuzJcuwIjDgVq5PVCF8nSldd4e=s828" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="696" data-original-width="828" height="269" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEicOWswkHYJ9cVZEW0oHkymbZg8hJACQjpz7iiHC__rOshobltUgnW2ILbo8HF_xRIZDvsNbVWjG0Qu_k64KAGqWClzQ7944x7_0CQ9RyKL9UEgIT2JxuhoMM5_PbPOD90BhdyZD_aGTOhAJNr0V5_XEAMWVqwzLBDuzJcuwIjDgVq5PVCF8nSldd4e=s320" width="320" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">Here is proof as well of Don pestering William Vincent via PM on Facebook begging William to allow this debate to happen. He begged and any attempt to claim he wasn't is just a lie. </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEheiipkU-QdnHshQgMHYo80HBJ_BL4-BnBP5fQuT6IU-EmL8ktpoK2ETDDkEtE-tWkzbk728otO5dbr7SpzjevETZsT0hYt9VdlvgkN6pPmdckiY_I59K2OFJST4d3EaiFvNcljxcYAjMc1p2zuUANvza-WyzyvK813t5806dg_a4kgzi3Bu9z2mACa=s960" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="960" data-original-width="540" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEheiipkU-QdnHshQgMHYo80HBJ_BL4-BnBP5fQuT6IU-EmL8ktpoK2ETDDkEtE-tWkzbk728otO5dbr7SpzjevETZsT0hYt9VdlvgkN6pPmdckiY_I59K2OFJST4d3EaiFvNcljxcYAjMc1p2zuUANvza-WyzyvK813t5806dg_a4kgzi3Bu9z2mACa=s320" width="180" /></a></div></div>As you will ultimately see, there is a reason Don doesn't want to tell the truth about this debate now. <p></p><p>He not only got embarassed finding out he was really debating Lance Conley. He got embarassed by losing the debate that he BEGGED to have against me and HE MADE ALL THE RULES AND PROPOSITIONS which I AGREED to uphold and DID. </p><p>In the next posts to come, I will be showing how this debate went. Enjoy this clusterbomb of insanity. </p><p>---</p><p>Here below was the Proposed Rules and Propositions for the Sergius Bale VS Don Preston Formal Written Debate. </p><p><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">---</span></p><p><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Proposed Rules and
Propositions for the Sergius Bale V - Don K Preston Formal Debate FaceBook</span></p><p></p><div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Sergius
Bale PhD- Greek Orthodox Church <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Don
K. Preston – Full (true) preterist, of Preterist Research Institute. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Topic:
The Dating of the book of Revelation– Before AD 70 or After?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br /></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Proposed
Propositions for the debate: Resolved, The Book of Revelation was definitely
written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and is predictive of
that event.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Affirm:
Don K. Preston <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Deny:
Sergius Bale<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Resolved:
The Book of Revelation, while not definitive, was likely written in the reign
of Emperor Domitian (AD 90s) after the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Affirm:
Sergius Bale <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Deny:
Don K. Preston <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">****************
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Format
and Logistics <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; margin-bottom: 7.95pt; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Each
man will have three affirmative presentations and three negative. Each man will
affirm his own affirmative– see the propositions. This provides for a total of
12 presentations. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class="WordSection2"><p align="left" class="L2-1" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">·<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Each presentation will be 1500 -<b>2500</b><span style="color: red;"> </span>words, and not to exceed 2500 words. Exceptions will
be made. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="left" class="L2-1" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; text-align: left;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">·<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">So as to avoid any misunderstanding
and misrepresentation, each man has the right, but not the obligation, to ask
the other as many as 10 written questions, prior to the debate, to aid in a
proper understanding and representation of the other man’s position. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="left" class="L2-1" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; text-align: left;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">·<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">When the questions have been
submitted, all of the questions will be answered candidly, without obfuscation
or equivocation, by each man, according to each man’s sincere understanding of
Scripture in regard to the question. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="left" class="L2-1" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; text-align: left;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">·<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Each man will return the questions,
with his answers, via e-mail, within one day of receiving the questions. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="left" class="L2-1" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; text-align: left;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">·<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">The questions may be submitted by
each man at any time after the finalization of the agreement for the debate. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="left" class="L2-1" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; text-align: left;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">·<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Don K. Preston will begin in the
affirmative. After Sergius Bale has presented his final (third) negative
presentation, he will then submit his first affirmative. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="left" class="L2-1" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; text-align: left;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">·<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Unless there are extenuating
circumstances, each man will present his respective presentation within no
later than <b>three</b> weeks after the submission and posting of the other
man’s presentation. Time extensions will be permitted. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="left" class="L2-1" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; text-align: left;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">·<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">William Vincent, owner of the Full
Preterism: A Thing of the Past FaceBook page, must suspend the rule of the forum
that forbids publication of forum content outside of the forum. I will want to
publish the debate on my FaceBook page- and pages– as well as on my websites.
The debate will have far wider interest than the -200 members of the forum. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p align="left" class="L2-1" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; text-align: left;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">·<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;">If either man publishes the debate in
any forum outside of the Full Preterism: A Thing of the Past FaceBook page: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: .1pt; mso-line-height-rule: exactly; mso-pagination: widow-orphan;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 107%;">1.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 107%;">No arguments
or material shall be altered by additions, deletions or any other alterations
in any way.</span></p><p align="left" class="L3-1" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .25in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 107%;">2.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 107%;">If either or both men publish the debate
outside of the Full Preterism: A Thing of the Past FaceBook page, the entirety
of the debate, with no alterations, no additions, no deletions being made will
be posted / published.</span></p>
<div style="border-bottom: dotted black 2.25pt; border: none; mso-element: para-border-div; padding: 0in 0in 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; line-height: 107%; mso-border-bottom-alt: dotted black 2.25pt; mso-list: skip; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; padding: 0in; tab-stops: -35.95pt -.25in 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 431.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;"><o:p> </o:p></span>Rules
of Conduct Hedge’s Rules for Controversy will be honored and observed by each
man in this debate. Below is an edited summary of those rules:</p></div><p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;"><o:p> </o:p>Rule
1: The propositions for the debate will be as clearly defined as possible so
that there could be no misunderstanding about the issues at stake.</p><p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;">Rule
2: Each man in the debate will consider the other to be his equal and act
toward him with dignity, respect and Christian decorum.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;">Rule
3: No material, no argument that is not directly pertinent to establishing or
negating an argument, from Scripture, shall be introduced by either man. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;">Rule
4: Neither man will ridicule the other, question his motives, integrity, or his
standing in Christ. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;">Rule
5: It is the responsibility of each man, when in the negative, to follow,
address, and answer, to the best of his ability and consistent with his
personal conviction, each of the arguments of the affirmative presenter. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;">Rule
6: The consequences of any doctrine are not to be charged on him who maintains
it, unless he expressly avows them. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;">Rule
7: As truth, and not victory, is the professed object of controversy, whatever
proofs may be advanced, on either side, should be examined with fairness and
candor; and any attempt to ensnare an adversary by the arts of sophistry, or to
lessen the force of his reasoning, by wit or ridicule is a violation of the
rules of honorable controversy. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p align="left" class="ListParagra" style="mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 6.0in 467.9pt; text-align: left;">Rule
8: Under no circumstances shall either man purposely misrepresent the beliefs
or doctrine of the other.<span style="mso-tab-count: 3;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: -35.95pt 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 431.9pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;"><o:p> </o:p></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Signed
– Don K. Preston– 9-27-2021</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: -35.95pt 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 431.9pt;"><a name="BM_1_"></a><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 107%;"><o:p>Signed - Sergius Bale (AKA Lance Conley) 9.27.2021</o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: -35.95pt 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 431.9pt;">--</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 107%; mso-list: skip; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; tab-stops: -35.95pt 0in .5in 1.0in 1.5in 2.0in 2.5in 3.0in 3.5in 4.0in 4.5in 5.0in 5.5in 431.9pt;">Part 2 we will have the Questions & Answers Section of this Debate.</p><p></p>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-67357774079754008252021-12-04T14:22:00.001-08:002021-12-04T14:22:11.640-08:00William Bell - The Anti-Semite and Racist<p></p><p><span style="color: black; font-size: 13.5pt;">This article will touch on
William Bell's open antisemitism and burning hatred of those in Judaism and
ethnically Jewish people. Bell wrote a short book exposing he believes in anti-Semitic
writings when he wrote <i>Zionism: A Wolf In Judaism's Clothing.</i> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; text-decoration-color: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-thickness: initial; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="color: black; font-size: 13.5pt;">He cites Alan Hart as his
"inspiration for this writing"<a href="#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 13.5pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>. This should already be an
issue already as Alan Hart wrote a three-part series called <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews</i> and
was constantly someone who promoted 9/11 conspiracy theories about Israel and
continued in making anti-Semite works until his death in 2018. Hart said quite
clearly in this book that he believed that Israel and the Jews who live there
have no right to exist. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black; font-size: 13.5pt;">Bell claims his “work has made an
indelible impact on my studies because of their detail and accuracy in
documenting the history of the Palestinian Arab-Zionist conflict and because of
his credentials and credibility”... Bell even goes as far to claim that “Alan
Hart is a chosen vessel, eminently prepared and qualified for such a task of
establishing the proper context”. Bell loved this anti-Semite work so much so
that he says “When I first read the Prologue, I was moved to contact Hart and
express my appreciation for his work.<a href="#_ftn2" name="_ftnref2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 13.5pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black; font-size: 13.5pt;">Throughout this book, Bell goes
after Israel and Zionism all in some bizarre attempt to justify his heretical
full preterist beliefs. No matter what you think about Israel and the
Palestinian conflict, no Christian should wish death on Israelis nor the
Palestinians. Zionism is a heresy in Orthodoxy but it does not mean we should
partake in these evil racist ideologies like William Bell has become enamored
and indoctrinated with. It seems after reading this book that Bell is
justifying being anti-Jew with his full preterism belief. If full preterism
requires you to be racist you should just reject it as Christ demands no hatred
for another for their race just as you should reject racism that comes with
some in Zionist circles as well. Both are equally detestable to God. This along
with Bell working with Black Hebrew Israelites just further shows us this man
is a perverse person teaching people to hate others… and we won’t in this post
even get to Bell’s endorsement of living polygamous lifestyles. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color: black; font-size: 13.5pt;">If you think that Don Preston
doesn’t agree with anti-Semite nonsense like Bell then you would be wrong as he
not only shares a ministry with William Bell but also wrote a book <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Israel 1948 Countdown to Nowhere</i> that
Bell also endorses. These two both have said numerous times in Facebook
discussions that they don’t believe Jews exist anymore and haven’t existed
since 70 AD. Bell even in this stupid book tries to make claims that “neither
Ashkenazi Jews from Europe nor their language identifies tem, genetically,
ethnically, linguistically or geographically with the Semitic people or
language of the Bible. Therefore, those who aren’t indigenous people of the
land and surrounding countries and people mentioned above are baseless in their
charge of anti-Semitism for they aren’t Semites in any biblical sense of the
true meaning of the word or language”<a href="#_ftn3" name="_ftnref3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 13.5pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>. In other words, Bell
tries to argue he’s not a racist to European Jews because he doesn’t believe
they are Jews to begin with, a common trope we find from anti-Semites like Bell
and Alan Hart to justify their iconoclasm and racism against people they hate
and ultimately, hating God as well. Don Preston believes the same things and
agrees with this nonsense as well. It is safe to say one should reject Bell. He
is a noted racist, anti-Semite, dives in deep with the racist black groups like
the Black Hebrew Roots and Black Hebrew Israelites who are anti-white and
racists with their ideologies. Bell also openly endorses polygamy and teaches
heresies galore with his full preterism. Let us hope and pray this false
teacher and perverter of the Gospel repents before he meets His Creator. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span style="color: black; font-size: 13.5pt;">Proof: </span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgz-n7TqrA3ooGZf12YhC_zLI9_-degkBQ-kqGF2dLfBbYZzsD6Gzat6ddHd0k5TeWE-32qUT0oZISVHYQhJj8-VLJ2d18wiKO8lGUa8TZYGcnForQ99jHifjtNydI_usYzeHG-apZn7gx2WIlMjnZnBDWpWd0MCWQVQZPws29PTbx5oEuw3_8wgKyv=s1368" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1368" data-original-width="828" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgz-n7TqrA3ooGZf12YhC_zLI9_-degkBQ-kqGF2dLfBbYZzsD6Gzat6ddHd0k5TeWE-32qUT0oZISVHYQhJj8-VLJ2d18wiKO8lGUa8TZYGcnForQ99jHifjtNydI_usYzeHG-apZn7gx2WIlMjnZnBDWpWd0MCWQVQZPws29PTbx5oEuw3_8wgKyv=w388-h640" width="388" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj6dn5mWhde0drQNwiUqLmXUMC1uTjKGFqwSYLAOppSOrVBmGtt8pbm01P0hljFJL5VG5u81b41sA8k2rtioZnWvZIroP_VWkZaDWXQM7BGQpo3URYsyP5aP8OGDZfzWlDtsa3C0Ql_O3cYKsFlCmQIv4c1Omb9tlj1R-we0bC9oYunrmeAlD1D4Yvs=s1082" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1082" data-original-width="638" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj6dn5mWhde0drQNwiUqLmXUMC1uTjKGFqwSYLAOppSOrVBmGtt8pbm01P0hljFJL5VG5u81b41sA8k2rtioZnWvZIroP_VWkZaDWXQM7BGQpo3URYsyP5aP8OGDZfzWlDtsa3C0Ql_O3cYKsFlCmQIv4c1Omb9tlj1R-we0bC9oYunrmeAlD1D4Yvs=w378-h640" width="378" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEggSZW_VuIidBmuspSjegzYu2YkpVzU-ZF91hZFdv1wDo_cSJgfw3v_70jsMqe3UgogvUJXfv9yop6im6tLKM_54Tu1n55ORitLK6Yn2MNRLelrGb7OWTwm2VF3X9ECLR8y5aVi4rLWj2yvUi0WcrBFd79iDAoMyvRk98lABM9Klzl4s4YIULTMTJV2=s1177" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1177" data-original-width="611" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEggSZW_VuIidBmuspSjegzYu2YkpVzU-ZF91hZFdv1wDo_cSJgfw3v_70jsMqe3UgogvUJXfv9yop6im6tLKM_54Tu1n55ORitLK6Yn2MNRLelrGb7OWTwm2VF3X9ECLR8y5aVi4rLWj2yvUi0WcrBFd79iDAoMyvRk98lABM9Klzl4s4YIULTMTJV2=w332-h640" width="332" /></a></div><br /><p></p>
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<div id="ftn1" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="#_ftnref1" name="_ftn1" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[1]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a>
William Bell. Zionism, The Wolf in Judaism’s Clothing. 2012. Loc. 23.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div id="ftn2" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="#_ftnref2" name="_ftn2" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[2]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> Loc.
42.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div id="ftn3" style="mso-element: footnote;">
<p class="MsoFootnoteText"><a href="#_ftnref3" name="_ftn3" style="mso-footnote-id: ftn3;" title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 10.0pt; line-height: 107%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">[3]</span></span><!--[endif]--></span></span></a> Loc.
551.<o:p></o:p></p>
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</div><br /><p></p>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-13528780841789687682021-12-04T12:51:00.001-08:002021-12-04T12:51:07.875-08:00William Bell - Full Preterist & Polygamist<p style="text-align: center;"> It has been brought to light that William Bell openly supports polygamy, polyamory, and polgyny. Here we have Yonah Jackson declaring emphatically that his teacher William Bell teaches this to be a biblical practice... </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEibAp6JoP3n4PJ7CvKG9N-j4EJ62Lt-pAuZHvmzLrLrp6EjpUutBF_u0w_T9r_2OoRBi-Am-RbWUktfnpyKAOPoadPLpWmRmHXSE4rCdTNR9ND8l5RmEub-arnjkpg-CjQ1ejn-66izlmL-XmorUvwCwWgJyOZZaM1U71A4aU7_Rgo9z5mX8viz08ba=s679" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="481" data-original-width="679" height="227" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEibAp6JoP3n4PJ7CvKG9N-j4EJ62Lt-pAuZHvmzLrLrp6EjpUutBF_u0w_T9r_2OoRBi-Am-RbWUktfnpyKAOPoadPLpWmRmHXSE4rCdTNR9ND8l5RmEub-arnjkpg-CjQ1ejn-66izlmL-XmorUvwCwWgJyOZZaM1U71A4aU7_Rgo9z5mX8viz08ba=s320" width="320" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">Here we have another follower Elvin Israel Israel openly teaching this is acceptable and attempting to live this lifestyle... </div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEg89lQpceArO6w-pdKUeRflxeT5RyCqcacmRdFD5SartiuWVbbQNRkZUxId7ve3lFlGG0ZF8TNci3obsAbqiXrUBtEVo4uS8Ik5I1syjHW0Dm4pjcvabgRE0fk-ZwN0juxc4NdUAvVhW-UXS06a07-XHCPPtu0uqno9rG8l6k_LeR6mnvx6Xxz0gRKh=s828" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="646" data-original-width="828" height="250" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEg89lQpceArO6w-pdKUeRflxeT5RyCqcacmRdFD5SartiuWVbbQNRkZUxId7ve3lFlGG0ZF8TNci3obsAbqiXrUBtEVo4uS8Ik5I1syjHW0Dm4pjcvabgRE0fk-ZwN0juxc4NdUAvVhW-UXS06a07-XHCPPtu0uqno9rG8l6k_LeR6mnvx6Xxz0gRKh=s320" width="320" /></a></div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgNw6MC6QrrPct1zwgLZJeZ8MX0OCl7O5kDRfqZyDTJ6DhnjSgPpwTI-GJ3gzWRC8PoX30DSoZ89N2dsNcZmcQnznDnGwtcv7Jy0dC1iCs7riN9fwqLWHkl0oDYKHETX8x_fFk-piwfrbCbuKi8TLHafnKw6--fafGgGHwVBWHUWDnx6UUU8sd43Rto=s828" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="824" data-original-width="828" height="318" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgNw6MC6QrrPct1zwgLZJeZ8MX0OCl7O5kDRfqZyDTJ6DhnjSgPpwTI-GJ3gzWRC8PoX30DSoZ89N2dsNcZmcQnznDnGwtcv7Jy0dC1iCs7riN9fwqLWHkl0oDYKHETX8x_fFk-piwfrbCbuKi8TLHafnKw6--fafGgGHwVBWHUWDnx6UUU8sd43Rto=s320" width="320" /></a></div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">Here we have one of Elvin's friends, another follower of Bell, Ernest Hooks Sr supporting this lifestyle. </div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEi4DmQG8S6pGBIP8d5zhAZC5tjLwpyaIHwyvWTr6wLpKmpVXyTmITw64xBJ9o4NW3w_l4Ym5a56T_wMRvludY86f-y77DldQ5obN2uHq1AsAEyZKns71SmxAIPnYzq99-c6bPRW_BUsXbTe6VeioQovQZ6snFeV84PWZWLNEq3Xo0YC2D4r-Z79pJxa=s1107" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1107" data-original-width="828" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEi4DmQG8S6pGBIP8d5zhAZC5tjLwpyaIHwyvWTr6wLpKmpVXyTmITw64xBJ9o4NW3w_l4Ym5a56T_wMRvludY86f-y77DldQ5obN2uHq1AsAEyZKns71SmxAIPnYzq99-c6bPRW_BUsXbTe6VeioQovQZ6snFeV84PWZWLNEq3Xo0YC2D4r-Z79pJxa=s320" width="239" /></a></div><div style="text-align: center;">Again here with another Bell follower Daud Qam Hanashaah: </div></div><div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhXiNlVoHlSzYpFGbOBRleLxZDEi6zdnVsB7kCrHeUiZgHm8fH0l_MSaQwR6p0nfScHqh79PYSMwCyzAqFyC0-z6aES1Sb7pwVXgGYVA2o1NOyDsjVp5jjFi8dWXp-Mxims3ddYH0UXCU-SpdB6z6-uR0yU0pKZFeExE-uAbVJZEQNU1tQiPxx7sdfX=s867" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="867" data-original-width="742" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhXiNlVoHlSzYpFGbOBRleLxZDEi6zdnVsB7kCrHeUiZgHm8fH0l_MSaQwR6p0nfScHqh79PYSMwCyzAqFyC0-z6aES1Sb7pwVXgGYVA2o1NOyDsjVp5jjFi8dWXp-Mxims3ddYH0UXCU-SpdB6z6-uR0yU0pKZFeExE-uAbVJZEQNU1tQiPxx7sdfX=s320" width="274" /></a></div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">Then we have another follower of Bell here Raymond Yeboah: </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgPyorgkqfgMeMH2LW3CgsvZzEVttjiQu81GKk8YKY7N8oC9fbJUi-WSaEV9oL8qrheLos_IZbuL6fjEPd7Dhi7fWbAvC8BExAfL32HJ3mu3v-8ZQe2ssSl8nWykucHHQvfGGN3Ax7-TSKVdB1m82Xyt6s6WRRe-w-MZqubHJHtUwepIWcbeT07fHXm=s1375" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1375" data-original-width="828" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgPyorgkqfgMeMH2LW3CgsvZzEVttjiQu81GKk8YKY7N8oC9fbJUi-WSaEV9oL8qrheLos_IZbuL6fjEPd7Dhi7fWbAvC8BExAfL32HJ3mu3v-8ZQe2ssSl8nWykucHHQvfGGN3Ax7-TSKVdB1m82Xyt6s6WRRe-w-MZqubHJHtUwepIWcbeT07fHXm=s320" width="193" /></a></div><div style="text-align: center;">These men all endorse perverse sexual lifestyles that go against God's will for mankind. As a matter of fact, nowhere does the Old nor New Testament ever claim this is the preferred lifestyle of man to uphold. As a matter of fact, it is constantly and consistently frowned upon and put in a negative light in Scripture as we see from reading of Lamech, Abraham's marriages and the issues there, Jacob's marriages and his issues with Rachel and Leah, David's many marriages and the issues there, Solomon and his many hundreds of marriages and his issues, and so on this goes. These sad young men have been misled by William Bell. </div></div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">Full preterism has often done this unfortunately and tried to teach perverse lifestyles as acceptable since they teach there is no more "spiritual death" (sin). The Oneida Cult did similar to William Bell here where they would all share sexual partners and also engaged in pedophilia with the children of this cult. You can go research all this for yourself to learn the sick and perverse beliefs and practices of this full preterist cult. William Bell apparently is not much different and shares this perverse belief is acceptable behavior for a Christian to uphold. </div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">Christians have from the beginning been supposed to be in monogamous marriages. </div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">Genesis 2:24 - Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife (singular) and they shall become one flesh. </div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">Deuteronomy 17:17 - And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold. </div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">Deuteronomy 24:5 - He shall be free at home for one year to be happy with his wife (singular) whom he has taken.</div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">Leviticus 18:18 - And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, unconvering her nakedness while her sister is still alive. </div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">Proverbs 18:22 - He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the Lord. </div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">Mark 10:8-9 - And the two shall become one flesh'. So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let not man separate". </div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">1 Cor 7:2 - But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman have her own husband. </div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">Ephesians 5:33 - Let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.</div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">1 Timothy 3:2 - Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of ONE WIFE, sober minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach...</div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">I could go on with this but I think the Scripture speaks for itself how Christians are supposed to be when it comes to marriage: heterosexual monogomy. </div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">If this pervert William Bell and his following of fellow perverts do not like that, that's too bad. They need to repent of this evil lifestyle and leave it behind. </div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;">If there is any doubt that William Bell does not believe in polygamy here is this: </div><div><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgkKNtRLTlhBaOyrwOgvoYrf7gpyTTy1ExauVY3xegfuUBzumCJNASZ5uDNpsRtRjoR7pApu1RcFXw0hr7ERpghAEe2wk8TBNIYRTsYd96ftemYaAEL2tiBhGiRfMfjwESCIx-Ljuz_5X3EKgF1O-J6f3i0KKWFPqf9UAoUEDK3kB4daN3xY385I6p6=s1177" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1177" data-original-width="611" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgkKNtRLTlhBaOyrwOgvoYrf7gpyTTy1ExauVY3xegfuUBzumCJNASZ5uDNpsRtRjoR7pApu1RcFXw0hr7ERpghAEe2wk8TBNIYRTsYd96ftemYaAEL2tiBhGiRfMfjwESCIx-Ljuz_5X3EKgF1O-J6f3i0KKWFPqf9UAoUEDK3kB4daN3xY385I6p6=w333-h640" width="333" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj4SUNYjb4xpVExX1rF1UeznXBWHOo9i7DxF_T7svTIKEUmZWLJ7RYEhU3Gdlexc2_luTaeRX3-wYmeCyScHMHTGl2nNg4lUZBWv94JBO84N79D_t0kIN61ZLhuqKc-YSalvP7kahaEEPOANl3WAraUiyUkZ4aoqAUBexCgS3kHD2EGHAzMJFzOfKRh=s1368" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1368" data-original-width="828" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj4SUNYjb4xpVExX1rF1UeznXBWHOo9i7DxF_T7svTIKEUmZWLJ7RYEhU3Gdlexc2_luTaeRX3-wYmeCyScHMHTGl2nNg4lUZBWv94JBO84N79D_t0kIN61ZLhuqKc-YSalvP7kahaEEPOANl3WAraUiyUkZ4aoqAUBexCgS3kHD2EGHAzMJFzOfKRh=w387-h640" width="387" /></a></div><br /><div><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgP17285STIPyEiX-YUvQsVcEsfLqV4aWpHm4bpppJpdFgb6o5CQXpEyXA_xPuAvMhNXrW4Q1UnhgMDn7EA7shrpA2D7JtMDekt_ll0W44jqLgJ6ovq-_5jDKTfNsFQj9VbZzdvh0SasIEZs-oP8GsDUeKu7P8sGPKyqpFyNqRenQm1awEsJuJna2Zm=s1476" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1476" data-original-width="828" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgP17285STIPyEiX-YUvQsVcEsfLqV4aWpHm4bpppJpdFgb6o5CQXpEyXA_xPuAvMhNXrW4Q1UnhgMDn7EA7shrpA2D7JtMDekt_ll0W44jqLgJ6ovq-_5jDKTfNsFQj9VbZzdvh0SasIEZs-oP8GsDUeKu7P8sGPKyqpFyNqRenQm1awEsJuJna2Zm=w360-h640" width="360" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">Bell openly here endorses polygamy and polyamory and polygyny. It is plain as day to see this is the case. Don K Preston of course has no problem endorsing this lifestyle as well since he shares and continues in a disgusting ministry with William Bell. These two are perfect for each other in teaching perverse lifestyles as acceptable are they not? May these disgusting people repent of their disgusting and dirty heresies that produce nothing more than sinful lifestyles that are beneath the person who confesses the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and claims that he or she are a Christian. </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><br /><div><br /></div><div><br /></div>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-72047829388727601002021-11-08T23:30:00.121-08:002021-11-08T23:30:00.166-08:00Full Preterist John Watson and Trent Parrot: Cowards & Liars<p>On September 21, 2021, Full Preterist John Watson challenged ANYONE to debate him and refute him on 1 Corinthians 15 and claimed no one could prove that the resurrection of the dead that Paul talks about there is a biological raising of the dead. </p><p>So I took his challenge on September 30, 2021 and made this video which I will link here: </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" class="BLOG_video_class" height="266" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Zr74ix4XE7s" width="529" youtube-src-id="Zr74ix4XE7s"></iframe></div><br /><p>I think it is safe to say that if a full preterist is not outright hostile towards me and shows respect I do try my best to show them respect and courtesy and I definitely did so with John Watson. Unfortunately, when truth refutes someone like Watson who is clearly in heresy, the devil always comes out of these people and they always eventually resort to cowardice and lying. </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhQOMVwoa-8S_5rwLt0WWYi1bzxDfjBVMbrvjKVKGT-Meet7zmxohuyOXRDbDgJsjnklatSqZh8OpBozACM2hfke3yk-rl5SAcMoJ_QjePwBVnkxr4CeyfceuP-aYNYkH84IRcQy2ki9PQB1N67Pq57M_17ZD1O0WYG8ObTba7tS5jjAf01RnFNZyiH=s1174" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1174" data-original-width="897" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhQOMVwoa-8S_5rwLt0WWYi1bzxDfjBVMbrvjKVKGT-Meet7zmxohuyOXRDbDgJsjnklatSqZh8OpBozACM2hfke3yk-rl5SAcMoJ_QjePwBVnkxr4CeyfceuP-aYNYkH84IRcQy2ki9PQB1N67Pq57M_17ZD1O0WYG8ObTba7tS5jjAf01RnFNZyiH=s320" width="244" /></a></div><br /><p>What resulted is EXCUSE after EXCUSE of why John Watson had to find time to watch the video... yet he found more than enough time to continue trying to challenge people like Norm Fields, Howard Denham, Scott Russell, and many various others to this same debate and to refute him. Funny how that works is it not? </p><p>As was to be expected of a heretic and a coward like John Watson, he ultimately copped out, began to make tons of excuses, being he was unable to refute me on 1 Corinthians 15. </p><p>Was it a shocker? Not really. This is the full preterist standard and their modus operandi. When they can't refute you, they run away. </p><p>Clearly this meme fully applies here... as we will see momentarily. </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjioEVdXeBrDr3YhWxPJvrtX5Wa4dT-Dc1wkIpPVaJ1Cx06X_GoqATPlbRTUmnk0zR5jYEVIFQtfZbfA1ElXa4JjUKfhRc0X2jxadMvP9qqKkYFHTCmf_8kILsaNCtAG2J4MzRYzev9Ub8wG7VfBmDBzkc0s7TVa1e-9-H2p6a561VXMEul0CRg1GR0=s1200" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="865" data-original-width="1200" height="231" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjioEVdXeBrDr3YhWxPJvrtX5Wa4dT-Dc1wkIpPVaJ1Cx06X_GoqATPlbRTUmnk0zR5jYEVIFQtfZbfA1ElXa4JjUKfhRc0X2jxadMvP9qqKkYFHTCmf_8kILsaNCtAG2J4MzRYzev9Ub8wG7VfBmDBzkc0s7TVa1e-9-H2p6a561VXMEul0CRg1GR0=s320" width="320" /></a></div><p></p><p>To add to this cowardly action, John Watson then decided in a video on 10-26-2021 to bring up my book and declare that Don Preston refuted, trashed, and destroyed my book <i>Hope Resurrected.</i><b> </b></p><p>This coward has openly admitted to me on Messenger that he has never read any full preterist works such as those written by Max King, Don Preston, Alan Bondar, Edward Stevens, or apparently anyone for that matter. He has also admitted he has not read my book either. </p><p>Evidence shown here where he straight up admits he's never read anything of King's nor Preston's... </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEipNR8A11RbfxJ8NZAxzgyRmSJAE1CDn5QgNqBI-Aa5ATbN4BzTkEWUOGE4yDTmN_Ubvtx9bueS2cB6FSSiN4ZilRMQfuvn0N8V_zlRmTNALgo9bm4vWlcBr6jxl_2-bWj2G2QrGYvL61gXLQWoq4w9rZznBOcoaFefsAWjx183V8dpAa8qqBkfWa1O=s1291" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1291" data-original-width="828" height="348" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEipNR8A11RbfxJ8NZAxzgyRmSJAE1CDn5QgNqBI-Aa5ATbN4BzTkEWUOGE4yDTmN_Ubvtx9bueS2cB6FSSiN4ZilRMQfuvn0N8V_zlRmTNALgo9bm4vWlcBr6jxl_2-bWj2G2QrGYvL61gXLQWoq4w9rZznBOcoaFefsAWjx183V8dpAa8qqBkfWa1O=w223-h348" width="223" /></a></div><div><br /></div><div>Next up we have our conversation after he decided to try and attack and lie about me proving John Watson is not just a clown and a coward but also a weasel and a pathetic liar who doesn't care about telling the truth as long as he can push his agenda to spread full preterism. It is quite apparent John Watson is willing to lie and try to discredit others to push his full preterist agenda. Christians seek to tell the truth at all times and that applies to not lying about others. You can tell the heretic by their heterodox way of living. </div><div><br /></div><div>Please note reader, John Watson has no idea what is in my books nor the people he claims in his videos refute me. Since he has no idea what is written in my books nor any of the full preterists' works it's nothing but a bold and pig-faced lie.</div><div><p>John Watson shamefully preaches at Westside Church of Christ in Indianopolis, Indiana and I feel sorry for those who go to his church because this pastor is willing to lie and deceive people to push and peddle his agenda. It is shameful that someone who pastors a church would be such a coward, a beta male, and an obviously conniving liar like this unfortunate specimen who calls himself a pastor and a man of God (clearly he is not and lives in delusional apostasy and heresy). </p><p>One can only hope and pray this cowardly liar who pastors a church will find the ability within himself to come to the True Christ and repent of his heresy and leave this cheap knockoff-Jesus that John Watson and his cohort of full preterists have concocted out of their butts that makes Jehovah Witness and Mormons' Jesus look a little less stupid (but let us make no mistake, the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons have just as fake of a Jesus as the full preterists like John Watson do). </p><p>This was our last correspondence after he decided to lie about me on his video. I obviously called him out for this obvious lying and misleading others and was subsequently blocked after because liars like John Watson cannot handle the pressure when they get confronted and exposed as the charlatans, heretics, and losers they truly are. He writes that there will be an apology in a next video... don't think we'll actually be seeing one since he has blocked me from all these "shows" and social media. Typical behavior of a full preterist.</p></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiz0qW47-WwBcdQB4atG3-EQ8AlhsPt4HCbNCfdFwuziLhiR_ciZJKMDs2-nMeQCKIUAb5VUB6SRxFF93qQhaopiMwzufQaPxsSzil9wCAjubuYOp3Q8H9zyncjkdgYW1ggnxOlLyyUaLjVHZsXhCQCkeWmqrl9VOjHUum3tdVl7EqyR7GCLUNWn-z6=s1792" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1792" data-original-width="828" height="439" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiz0qW47-WwBcdQB4atG3-EQ8AlhsPt4HCbNCfdFwuziLhiR_ciZJKMDs2-nMeQCKIUAb5VUB6SRxFF93qQhaopiMwzufQaPxsSzil9wCAjubuYOp3Q8H9zyncjkdgYW1ggnxOlLyyUaLjVHZsXhCQCkeWmqrl9VOjHUum3tdVl7EqyR7GCLUNWn-z6=w203-h439" width="203" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj8-MlHU9VMpPqdo4JzF3ClKimfrELZG6tpRkWyYX-3b6HFegnOuJ68BWbGuYt6zmAzTtYC2BD0dN0PHLf9RH7yiroaFDq3VG_E5IK4IgO94TxZfU3mwSVuP8Ei6UxVRCqGPc6-jf3axqdCUAUmEKMfniTxTaioionEIRL_eOshgUkFfkwE_iF0lNAl=s1792" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1792" data-original-width="828" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj8-MlHU9VMpPqdo4JzF3ClKimfrELZG6tpRkWyYX-3b6HFegnOuJ68BWbGuYt6zmAzTtYC2BD0dN0PHLf9RH7yiroaFDq3VG_E5IK4IgO94TxZfU3mwSVuP8Ei6UxVRCqGPc6-jf3axqdCUAUmEKMfniTxTaioionEIRL_eOshgUkFfkwE_iF0lNAl=s320" width="148" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj7WLZv7wv694w7SJ5Ok_BrNscJmvPyIPlIA_HXJ8-eE35TgwE6mEp6EZ0dWcRvV720Bb9gUWsitPqeg_lDZ49FJYo-MqT33x7AVDUpDZ17ES7_PWpgvlGhbOaA15h_rU9ZaU9-GEvGfNKHiOPKo5Ru69ywOzHgdIZRpT5b7urki3ejqU4_33jmSxTt=s1792" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1792" data-original-width="828" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj7WLZv7wv694w7SJ5Ok_BrNscJmvPyIPlIA_HXJ8-eE35TgwE6mEp6EZ0dWcRvV720Bb9gUWsitPqeg_lDZ49FJYo-MqT33x7AVDUpDZ17ES7_PWpgvlGhbOaA15h_rU9ZaU9-GEvGfNKHiOPKo5Ru69ywOzHgdIZRpT5b7urki3ejqU4_33jmSxTt=s320" width="148" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEifuk0d9M56wRwS4kV97fyzUmpKAnRgxOuG1NE_bg7dY637Xr0nePWAg7TlQHNVshRGgeDcOZEBLkUz6wUj_AG7QYOMXayvYmCOo4lo-5A-8skYpxtKdCxSGiFJI9pst5RwJnyNdTrcYQ55yxS9Gy9hFbLQWo8AmaR9-uxDNJyaUUaiGTw2zD9gk2gq=s1792" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1792" data-original-width="828" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEifuk0d9M56wRwS4kV97fyzUmpKAnRgxOuG1NE_bg7dY637Xr0nePWAg7TlQHNVshRGgeDcOZEBLkUz6wUj_AG7QYOMXayvYmCOo4lo-5A-8skYpxtKdCxSGiFJI9pst5RwJnyNdTrcYQ55yxS9Gy9hFbLQWo8AmaR9-uxDNJyaUUaiGTw2zD9gk2gq=s320" width="148" /></a></div><p>We see this behavior from people like Trent Parrot as well who frequents his little "show" as well who are either stupid or willing to lie about others. I confronted John's BFF about this same exact thing where they openly lie or make things up about others they know nothing about. They act as if they are experts and have read these works and then when you can get it out of them they prove they haven't read the works, haven't done any research, and are just spouting misinformation purposely for their agenda to spread their garbage to others and just straight up lie about others. </p><p>Here Trent makes a false comment... </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj2pG6tnl7k9kVcLKODNVNHqfTCJiVIk8mY2-e7KLpSFMzYWbxurd_mNjIEp8mUlXXa0KnO7vPgfVA-_geAOYeCmt7ziN0NL_oz9NiIKGIww5ajQri5IyzifTKKGSfDwSWk-2MMeSX8xnp6clRRaL4zbfpao3_Q9tSOxHAQ3Vlw86uzqb-xaEO4axDV=s755" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="508" data-original-width="755" height="215" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj2pG6tnl7k9kVcLKODNVNHqfTCJiVIk8mY2-e7KLpSFMzYWbxurd_mNjIEp8mUlXXa0KnO7vPgfVA-_geAOYeCmt7ziN0NL_oz9NiIKGIww5ajQri5IyzifTKKGSfDwSWk-2MMeSX8xnp6clRRaL4zbfpao3_Q9tSOxHAQ3Vlw86uzqb-xaEO4axDV=s320" width="320" /></a></div><p>Then when I confront the man about it this exchange takes place where he makes clear he's never read my book and never read any full preterist's works... he may have not ever read any book except the Bible either... </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEi44fRdvXWtCCnb7-_m6gtr62TboyTZD_3TwHmDvJdp62dTSaDM1k-grPWRT60Gpe0NX9SlyFQcwCBqsmDC5PivhG00l3N5Y0GBy4NPi38uPiWmKlfglbQ8Exm3i73OGjCXKIMuHShaxgOnILYVh8_xiG2c_DwwXLF9FuV6J9JeQ06tV8bvfx-9BB0T=s926" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="926" data-original-width="828" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEi44fRdvXWtCCnb7-_m6gtr62TboyTZD_3TwHmDvJdp62dTSaDM1k-grPWRT60Gpe0NX9SlyFQcwCBqsmDC5PivhG00l3N5Y0GBy4NPi38uPiWmKlfglbQ8Exm3i73OGjCXKIMuHShaxgOnILYVh8_xiG2c_DwwXLF9FuV6J9JeQ06tV8bvfx-9BB0T=s320" width="286" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgHvEXtMie5bo8Xy2fe-PBxBisKXMGBtIGeosCbOFMA3wKqWpkatfnNJ8np3hBbqoZWCLRm21g2CYnqPWPX_67CMA1K1aPzQj8UtHACjgq60qlKOHk3WEmHDT14xPTr5BzI-ieThckKApK2nR6MN27cvVuXyBXlss3KBYL5IN3U-3bFEVIIl2K721aw=s1152" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1152" data-original-width="828" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgHvEXtMie5bo8Xy2fe-PBxBisKXMGBtIGeosCbOFMA3wKqWpkatfnNJ8np3hBbqoZWCLRm21g2CYnqPWPX_67CMA1K1aPzQj8UtHACjgq60qlKOHk3WEmHDT14xPTr5BzI-ieThckKApK2nR6MN27cvVuXyBXlss3KBYL5IN3U-3bFEVIIl2K721aw=s320" width="230" /></a></div><br /><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEglC-koH-fKFzsQ1Ar3K3ykCdZAIDcjLw3LO556cXSPBSFaAVzOFjb3cAGT3vRSoIBgEdhQSV7-lgFqgjb9lFC6hYt6Bbf5IPkSTh7iuBErhGVl9BESJxt9vWOZN74REYVlBwTM5b3HZ55_yW3NTDmmVH9cvzCJeZ0vrgjWEw24wk__XnUgYn706Jq0=s1520" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1520" data-original-width="828" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEglC-koH-fKFzsQ1Ar3K3ykCdZAIDcjLw3LO556cXSPBSFaAVzOFjb3cAGT3vRSoIBgEdhQSV7-lgFqgjb9lFC6hYt6Bbf5IPkSTh7iuBErhGVl9BESJxt9vWOZN74REYVlBwTM5b3HZ55_yW3NTDmmVH9cvzCJeZ0vrgjWEw24wk__XnUgYn706Jq0=s320" width="174" /></a></div><div><br /></div>I was blocked by this individual as well for calling him to task. Full preterists will do and say anything to push their agenda and will lie about everything and run like the cowards they are any time they are called out and exposed for their lies. <div><br /></div><div>For extra, I leave you with this man attacking another man on here as an "uneducated Christian full of massive biblical ignorance" when this ignorant fool hasn't even read Max King! By his own admission Trent Parrot is uneducated and full of massive biblical ignorance. I won't even call him a Christian because full preterism is not Christianity. It is nothing but full blown heresy. <br /><div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhoHqCz2uBNQb9mACpHvNC_dnEgI5vE5nda8iJ_eqXygCDGCn0AcvpJF8H7EHDpQsxr56sC6oVQU-WreEw-yd14X8IspVs9WjJZeh5PzXEw8xP-Plleo6ZikoabYjfDi86DvlVhWTpYoGDL8IbA3vDY8gcU8t1izYf5Sb4GASd4TIaPK8WIHUjzjTIC=s1792" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1792" data-original-width="828" height="481" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhoHqCz2uBNQb9mACpHvNC_dnEgI5vE5nda8iJ_eqXygCDGCn0AcvpJF8H7EHDpQsxr56sC6oVQU-WreEw-yd14X8IspVs9WjJZeh5PzXEw8xP-Plleo6ZikoabYjfDi86DvlVhWTpYoGDL8IbA3vDY8gcU8t1izYf5Sb4GASd4TIaPK8WIHUjzjTIC=w222-h481" width="222" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p></div></div>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-84641351919109595302021-01-07T22:13:00.001-08:002021-01-07T22:13:39.027-08:00Matthew Chapter 22-28<p><b>[Chapter 22]</b></p><p>Christ talks in parable to them more while the Pharisees and Sadducees are already pissed off at Him.</p><p>22:1-14 - The King has a feast for son/prince and the people reject it and kill his servants and mock them. They fill this place with the good and bad who are invited. One comes in and is without a wedding garment and is taken away. Why does he pick this guy out? Because they gave people clothes. He had on street clothes. The man had no excuse not to wear it. It is supplied by the king. He tried to get in without accepting the garment. </p><p>Jesus wants all to repent and break themselves of their pride. Even when they know and get it, they want to reject Him and destroy Him. They don't want to be changed or change. God chose all of us but some do not want to change and you end up not completing your purpose.</p><p>22:15-22 - Then the Pharisees plot how to trap Him and bring the Herodians in on this plot (the Arab supporters and Jewish supporters of Herod). Matthew is showing how much they hate Jesus equally. Equivalent would be the Nazis and Communists teaming up to defeat someone. They ask if taxes should be paid to Caesar or not. If he says yes, he is pro-Rome and they can arrest him and if he says the opposite, they will hopefully see Him lose support. He is also in the Temple. They bring a graven image of Caesar to Him in the Temple. Jesus responds: Give to Caesar what is Caesar's. Give to God what is His. </p><p>[There is no fighting back against the government by the Early Church. You obey the state unless it makes you sin. Then, come what may. This converts Rome eventually]</p><p>22:23-33 - Sadduccees, resurrection-deniers, come and ask him a question about a bride who is for seven brothers who have died in succession. </p><p>The point Jesus makes here is that after the Resurrection of the dead, we will not be looking for a wife or having a children. It will be different so he is basically saying their question is retarded. They need to see the bigger issue. He then corrects them and proves the Resurrection by using only the Pentatauch, which the Sadduccees only accept to be the Old Testament. They are astonished. He got them too. </p><p>22:34-40 - The Pharisees regroup after seeing this and try another gotcha moment and try to get him into a dumb debate. This is on the greatest commandment. Jesus answers and owns them by saying "love God and love people". This passage also proves Jesus spoke Greek because he uses the word "mind" here. </p><p>22:41-46 - While they gathered, Jesus asks them a question. The reason he asks this is to show them and have them answer that He is God Incarnate. The Messiah therefore is not a mere man. He quotes Ps 109/110 (LXX/MT).</p><p><b>[Chapter 23]</b></p><p>Remember that this is Passover season and tensions are high because there have been "messiahs" before who started violent revolts versus Rome. Rome and Judea are both on edge. This is a highly charged atmosphere waiting for a storm to brew. </p><p>23:1-12 - "The Pharisees sitting in Moses' seat". This is a place where Moses' successors sit (part of the Jewish tradition and Jesus doesn't go against it. Moses was the Law-Giver and he had successors to teach the Law). This is apostolic succession, but you won't find this in the O.T. You find it in tradition that Jesus does not dispute and you find the apostles continue this practice. </p><p>Matthew writes this all after 70 AD. When he is writing it, we would have a "seat" for the bishop in the church. We developed on this from the Jews because we are the offspring of 2nd Temple Judaism. </p><p>Jesus refers to the Pharisees adding extra burdens and laws (v.4). </p><p>Shows them the Pharisees burden people and do not help relieve or lift them or help the outcasts and suffering. </p><p>They do all their works to be seen by men publically. They are in it for fame and notoriety. Virtue signalling. They are worshipping themselves. Setting up idols for themselves. </p><p>23:5 - They should keep the Law and in mind but this is false piety from them. Sadducees weren't really priests of Zadok. The Pharisees rejected the Sadducees and had lots of rabbinical trained people. </p><p>23:6-12 - Teacher is used in John 3:10; Acts 13:1; 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 4:11 and 2 Tim. 1:11. Father is also used in Luke 16:24; 1 Cor. 4:15 and Col. 3:21. It is not a prohibition. </p><p>All religious Jews are descended from the Pharisees. Rome in 70 AD wiped out the Sadducees and Zealots and Essenes were already a minority sect that died out in the deserts. The only survivors of Judaism were 1) Christians and 2) Pharisees post-70 AD. </p><p>After the Bar Kochba Revolt after 132-136 AD, the Wailing Wall (after 132 AD) it was the only piece of Jerusalem left. It wasn't until Constantine that they would be able to go to Jerusalem (the Jews) one time a day on the day of 70 AD as a commemoration day. A Temple to Zeus after the Bar Kochba Revolt would be built and erected and only torn down by St. Helena, mother of Constantine. At the time Mohammed lived, Jerusalem's Temple became a literal garbage dump. </p><p>23:13-36 - Jesus calls them out and curses the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy and refusal to help people find salvation. They screw over everyone and are also turds for this. Any convert that they do make, he says is a son of hell with them because they are blind guides. </p><p>"Swear by the gold of the Temple" is an oath rule the Pharisees made up to get past using Roman currency. Jesus says it is meaningless. Christ swears here too when he says "woe". </p><p>He still gives them a shot to repent but shows them where they are headed (hell). If you make an oath, keep it. </p><p>23:25-26 - Clean the inside, not just the outside. </p><p>23:27-28 - They are like beautiful tomns but dead inside. The sons of the devil, the Pharisees are guilty of killing from Abel to Zechariah. The cup of inequity is close to being filled. The ancestors have helped fill this cup. When they kill Jesus, they are finishing themselves off and will be judged by God through Rome. </p><p>23:36 - From Abel to Zechariah: Abel was the first murder. This was recent, this murder of St. John the Baptizer's father, Zechariah, who was High Priest. All that wickedness is culminating and will (judgment) fall on this generation (70 AD). </p><p>Herod's men had killed High Priest Zechariah (the legitimate priest, not a Sadducee) when they tried to kill the babies. John's mother Elizabeth had fled to the desert and John was eventually according to Church Tradition, and I have no reason to disagree with this, raised by angels. There is no reason to doubt the history of Christians because we trust pagans to do history correct too for the most part. We should also trust more because archaeology keeps backing up the bible more and more. St. Thomas and India for example were once rejected as fake history but now we have found it to be true. It is not legends. It is historical fact and data. </p><p>23:37-39 - Jesus laments over Jerusalem after His judgments. He wishes He could get them to stop rejecting Him.</p><p><b>[Chapter 24]</b></p><p><b><u>The Eschatological Discourse:</u> </b>Matthew writes his Gospel post-70.</p><p>He keeps showing us all the places where Christ fulfilled things that were prophesied. </p><p>"The time is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live" (John 5:25). Those "last days" are here. We are in them. It is not in the future like a dispensationalist would say. The perspective of the New Testament, is that when Jesus' first advent begins that this is the beginning of the end. The dominoes are falling. After a great judgment (the Cross), what is to come later is the 2nd Coming and the Resurrection of the Dead and changing of the cosmos.</p><p>When the Old Testament prophets prophesy, they condense and smush prophecies together. Jesus here will go a bit back and forth with them when He talks to THEM about AD 70 and then also about His return. </p><p>24:1-2 - They leave the Temple and the disciples marvel about all Herod has built and so Jesus tells them that at some point there will be nothing left, which will happen in 70 AD when the Temple will fall, as will all of Jerusalem and the province of Judaea mostly after the Bar Kochba Revolt takes place in 132-135 AD where they will defeat the Jews (Rome) and then completely raze and bulldoze the land and keep the Jews out until centuries later. </p><p>24:3-14 - When is your "coming"? When is the destroying of the Romans happening? Jesus says not to be deceived by things that happen because they are only "the beginning of sorrows" and "the end is not yet". </p><p>There will be a time of the end that will take place; it is not yet. </p><p>Christ shows them that this event of 70 AD will take place but tells them not to fret because it is all part of His plan and that will come to pass. </p><p>He tells the Apostles to expect to be martyred and persecuted and that this will continue to happen and go on and that even kingdoms like Rome will one day pass away and fall in the process before He returns. </p><p>24:14 - The Gospel will be preached in all the world? The foundations of this were done in the book of Acts but continues to be done today through Christ's apostles' successors aka the Church, that is you and I. </p><p>24:15-28 - </p><p>v.15 - Matthew says "let the reader understand" (some code is used here - will explain soon). Perhaps this is put here in case a persecutor Jew will read this and then come after their community? We can only speculate somewhat here. </p><p>The "abomination of desolation" was Antiochus Epiphanes in Daniel. Antiochus sacrifices a pig on the altar to Zeus/Jupiter. Maccabeans Revolt ensued and then they made a treaty with Rome. This is what was referred to here. Jesus tells them that it is going to happen again. Matthew wrote this after the fact that it had happened and uses code here because he doesn't want Romans to think that he was one of the revolters there at the War probably should they confiscate and read this work. If you think this is strange, recall that Peter does code too when he calls Rome "Babylon". Jesus tells them to flee versus participating in this war because it will be pointless. They would die if they did, following after a pointless war they would lose. In 132-135 AD they would be following a false messiah too and lose that war too should they join it so Jesus is saying do not join them for they are false and wicked ways. </p><p>The Christians before AD 70 would, by angel, be told to flee and go to Petra. Jesus told them to flee and they historically did this. Matthew writes of it after the event takes place. </p><p>Many people will try to decieve but do not believe it for when He comes for real it will be unmistakeable. The sun will appear less bright because of Christ's glory and the fullness of His splendor. You will KNOW when Jesus comes back. It will be unmistakeable. Until then we must stay faithful and endure to be faithful servants. </p><p>The elect here in v. 24 is eklektos which is used like race - ethnos. It is the <b>chosen group.</b> Specifically the Jewish remnant but it refers to Christians (this includes Gentiles). The Romans thought AD 70 was a glorious event. The Jews obviously did not. </p><p>Eschatology often does this concept of already, but not yet. The time now is and is now coming. Christ's Resurrection for example already happened. Ours has not. Matthew 24 is primarily about and for them in the past but at the same time, it is not all about the past because in it He has TWO DAYS. One is this Day of the Lord (AD 70) and the other is this FINAL DAY (the 2nd Coming) also called the Last Judgment. </p><p>Matthew having wrote this after 70 AD finds it important to share with the post-70 Christians. It is for them at the time and us. This is not a double-prophecy, but it is like Isaiah 7 in a few ways in that it was fulfilled in Isaiah's time period but then is fulfilled by Christ on a deeper level. So this chapter Matthew 24-25 is about us too. </p><p>24:29-31 - This did not happen in 70 AD. Rome did not completely destroy Jerusalem. We also did not see the 2nd Coming happen in 70 AD. </p><p>"Immediately" is used here. In the Greek it is used more like "swiftly". </p><p>We have two events discussed here. First, Israel gets judged but there is a remnant. Then the Gentiles join and all nations get judged one day. In the Old Testament, often, and here in the New Testament, things get smushed as a tendency. </p><p>The Jews are judged at the Cross and the remnant of Jews come to bring all nations to God. Then the Final Judgment and 2nd Coming are one day to take place in the future. The Old Covenant ends at the Cross and the New Covenant is ushered in and the remnant and New People that were prophesied about fulfill the Old Testament prophets' visions of the New Jerusalem. </p><p>Now that the Gentiles are coming in, the 2nd Coming awaits when they no longer come in (Romans 11:25-27). </p><p>Already, not yet. The whole world will see the sign of the Son of Man. </p><p>24:32-44 - The nations of the world will mourn because it's judgment. So things will happen to them that also point to future events. </p><p>Verse 36 says "of that day and hour, none know, when it happens". This is a different Day spoken of here. It is not the AD 70 "day" that has been previously warned about. </p><p>Verse 32-36 is a transition here. There is "this day" and "that day". Already but not yet going on here. Distinct days are here. V. 34-35 he says "heaven and earth". What is shown here is that they are less reliable witnesses than His Word so He will not even swear on the heaven and earth because He is reliable and it will assuredly happen as He says. </p><p>24:37-44 - It will be like the Days of Noah. Unexpected judgment time; if they had listened to Noah, they would be saved but instead they all are judged in the Flood. It will be like this at His return. They did not know when and we won't either. </p><p>Two parables will be given about this time and Jesus will tell all readers to be prepared and work to repent. </p><p>24:45-51 - Loyalty. The Master returns and sees everything in disarray because of the servant. The servant decides he is now permanently Master and abuses everyone under him, thinking Master would not return. The Master throws the servant out and cuts him out. The place of the hypocrites is where they will receive the inheritance of Hades. The bad place. The one left is the one in the Master's house. The one taken away is the one that is judged. Jesus is coming HERE, not there. The vultures are eating on the wicked who have chosen death. </p><p><b>[Chapter 25]</b></p><p>25:1-13 - A parable is given about a wedding. The bridegroom is coming to the village for his wedding. They bring oil lamps. The foolish ones fail to do so. The groom is delayed but makes it. The door was shut. Those who planned ahead were prepared with their candles. The people who prepared are people of Light. The foolish don't prepare themselves. </p><p>25:14-30 - This parable is about taking the gift given, using it, investing it, and then these are the results. One of the servants were just lazy. Unproductive. He, the lazy one is taken away. </p><p>25:31-46 - Christ will come with His angels and sit on His throne and will judge the entire world. Hell was made for the demons and Satan. The people who will end up in the lake of fire at the end will be those who choose to go there. </p><p>The talent parables are totally what happens not just to people of 70 AD but also to everyone who rejects Christ. They (the Jews) reject the gift and abuse it. All are chosen but few become elect. The lazy servant is the goat mentioned. Not the sheep of the shephard. </p><p>These people judged know Jesus. They are His servants and failed. That is being said specifically too to his disciples. He expects a return when He returns. This applies to us too. </p><p>25:41 - The fire of hell is for the devil and his fallen angels/demons but some go with him in the Final Day (people who reject Christ). </p><p><b>[Chapter 26]</b></p><p>26:1-5 - Jesus and Apostles have been occupying the Temple. The Jewish factions have all failed to stop Jesus so they plot how to defeat and kill Him. They at first plot to do this after Passover and it goes to the top with the High Priest Caiaphas present. They could not execute him as Jews but could form a mob to do it but they wanted to wait though, as it might be worse for them to kill this man on the Passover... these people that claim to be holy and godly are plotting to murder.</p><p>After Christ's Eschatological Discourse, He tells the apostles that He will be crucified, though He is Messiah. </p><p>26:6-13 - They leave and it is night and they go to Bethany to the house of Simon the Leper, one who Jesus must have healed. Jesus is in the home of the poor. A woman shows up with oil and she is poor and pours wealthy perfume all on Jesus. The apostles are baffled at this at first because this place is poor all around them and she just seems to have wasted something that could have been sold for a seemingly better purpose than what she's just used it for. </p><p>Jesus tells the apostles she has done a good thing from her heart. Her offering is from the heart. That is not always going to look practical to us on the outside. </p><p>26:14-16 - Judas goes to the chief priests and betrays Jesus. </p><p>Iscariot is not Judas' last name because they did not have last names at this time. To distinguish, they would say something like Jesus bar Joseph or Jesus of Nazareth. </p><p>Iscariot usually comes close to the word for "red" and it could be representative of blood. In Latin, Sacariots are some zealots and they were assassins of Roman officials. It is possible Judas was one of these people and it seems likely since he is seeking to get paid to betray Jesus. Judas did not sign up to be killed by Romans but then Jesus says he will be killed by them for following Him. This is likely why he betrays but we cannot fully prove any of this and it is only speculation at the end of the day. </p><p>Judas for 30 pieces of silver betrays him. 30 pieces of silver isn't much but is the price of a young male slave. This would be the equivalent in 2020 to like $300 today. It is not much to kill someone. Acts is the only book that mentions a specific person going to Hell and it is Judas who is this man who is condemned. </p><p>26:17-25 - 32 AD Passover was on a proper Sabbath. The day starts off on Friday at sundown. They have to prepare the meal on Thursday to do it right and properly. He eats at night with them on Friday. </p><p>Jesus says to speak to a guy that he will go to their house for it. </p><p>The disciples prepare Pascha feast meals. </p><p>Jesus tells them that one will betray Him and they all ask if it is them who will betray them. This says subtly to the reader that the other disciples were unsure and antsy and even thinking somewhat about abandoning or betraying Him and in the end, they all do betray Christ and abandon Him to some extent. They have doubts and this shows how alone Jesus truly is and was. Jesus looks at Judas and it is pretty obvious. They may not have thought this betrayal was to be murderous. </p><p>26:26-30 - Jesus creates Christian worship here. New Covenant. Eucharist. In the Old Covenant, they used animal blood. In the New Covenant, this Covenant is the Blood. His Body and His Blood is the New Covenant. This is the Eucharist. After this v.30 they worship after taking this. After Pentacost, the Early Church does this and celebrates the Eucharist and will also begin doing hymns and the first proto-liturgies will be created in this time. The way our current Liturgy is structured is based on this and it is structured much like the Jews did them because this was originally Jewish worship, now Christian worship. </p><p>Judas has not left them yet. He took the Eucharist too and Jesus let Him. Back in Genesis, the covenant with Abraham was "cutting the covenant" (Gen 18). When we take the Bread and Blood we are cutting covenant with God. In Abraham's case, God walks through the middle of the covenant. God is to die for the covenant if Israel breaks it and Jesus does this. This new covenant is the same. We are cutting covenant with God and if we are unworthy, we condemn ourselves. So Judas signs on for the New Covenant and then is condemned for his cutting covenant here since he rejects Christ. </p><p>26:31-35 - They go to the Mount of Olives. Jesus tells them all they will fail Him tonight. Peter says he will not betray Jesus. Jesus then tells him that he is wrong and that actually Peter will do so. They all end up failing. Jesu goes to Gethsemene and begins to pray. </p><p>26:36-46 - Jesus shares our human nature. Jesus also shares our Divine Nature and Divine Will. </p><p>One will, one purpose, one goal. Human nature was originally the same way. Jesus doesn't have sin. He has the original human nature and will. His natural will and nature is to do good and the will of God. Because of sin, sometimes we cannot always do what we think is the best/good decision. The natural human will is to live forever with God and live. Jesus doesn't want to die because death is foreign to Him. The will of God is to die for all. This is to remind us that Jesus is really human and will feel this. It will be painful. </p><p>He finds them sleeping. Verse 41 - Their spirit is willing but they are weak minded and weak. He feels abandoned and is. He prays 3x and they fall asleep all three times that they are supposed to keep watch. They act like the virgins here in his eschatological discourse, having fallen asleep. </p><p>Judas comes to betray Him. Judas had stayed awake to betray him. They have brought the Temple Gaurds. </p><p>26:47-56 - Jesus tells the disciples to put down their swords because he doesn't need conflict here. He will also go willingly to the Cross. If He wanted to He could send "12 legions of angels" (v. 53). He is ready to fulfill the Scriptures. The disciples flee when Jesus is arrested.</p><p>26:57-68 - Peter follows at a distance Jesus, being sent to the Sanhedrin and Caiphas. They need two witnesses to match to convict Jesus and can't do it. They try to run with Jesus' saying eventually that he will destroy the Temple. </p><p>26:63 - Caiaphas puts Jesus under oath "Are you Messiah"? Jesus answers yes. </p><p>26:64 - Jesus says in the future He will bring judgment. Caiaphas claims it blasphemy but it is not. This is not a fair trial at all obviously. Now that they have something (his claim as King) they can go to Rome about it. </p><p>26:69-75 - By the fire, Peter is approached by a servant girl. Denies Jesus 3x. Another girl asks and then more do. They know he has a Galilean accent too. It is obvious he follows Jesus. Then the rooster crows 3x. He has failed. </p><p><b>[Chapter 27]</b></p><p>27:1-2 - Having admitted He is Messiah, He admits He is King and so they take Him to Rome. Judas and all the apostles have betrayed Jesus to some extent. They deliver Jesus to the Governor of Judea's province, Pontius Pilate in the morning. </p><p>Pilate was a ruthless man as governor. Crucifixion was a natural punishment for him and even Romans found him to be vicious. They ruled by terror. After 70 AD, because he had failed to keep order, he was beheaded. He considered Jews to be non-persons, sub-humans. In modern equivalent, the Jews of that time saw Pilate to be like Stalin or Hitler essentially. All these Jews of differing sects are working together vs. Jesus. They hate each other but work together. They are also now in the house of the "impure Gentiles" (Rome). The same people who were so mad at Jesus for eating with unclean Jews and Gentiles are now willing to do this. Hypocrites. </p><p>27:3-10 - Judas has remorse and tries to give his money back and these hypocrites say it is blood money and cannot be in the Temple. So Judas goes and hangs himself after realizing he has sinned against Jesus. The apostles repented while Judas did not. They use the money and buy a field to bury strangers and this fulfills Jeremiah 39:6-9 (LXX). </p><p>27:11-14 - Pilate asks Jesus "Are you King of the Jews?" The Romans hated kings. They considered them tyrants and this is why they made it a republic with senates. Ceasar Augustus has only recently made himself "Conqueror" and ruler. They hated the title "King" so though He is Emperor he doesn't use the title personally. To them, this peasant Jesus is contesting the Empire. </p><p>Jesus answers Pilate but not the Jews here. Pilate is marvelled that Jesus deosn't respond at all to them. This is all an unusual thing. Why is Pilate even talking to a peasant Jew? </p><p>27:15-26 - Barrabbas - son of Abbas. Pilate has a choice to free someone. He picks Jesus or this criminal. He tries to engineer this so that he doesn't get himself screwed up by the Roman Emperor later for causing an unrest. His wife tells him also before that Jesus is just and this becomes an omen. She has had dreams about this. Romans were very suspicious and superstititious so he is trying to get out of this and spare him. He also, if Jesus is just, is open to the judgment of the pagan gods when they set things straight (which in pagan pantheon they do). If he is executed, it is on him. </p><p>1) He asked if he was Messiah first and then 2) when this fails, he chooses gross Barrabbas and the Jews chose Barrabbas. </p><p>The Jews say "to crucify him". He asks why they want to kill this man claiming to be their messiah. He saw the crowd was becoming a mob and he wants and has to keep peace so he seems to be stuck here but he isn't. He could have done a bunch of things here to quell this growing mob. He washes his hands of this and lets Jesus be crucified though. He is not off the hook though. He has and knows this Jesus is innocent for a fact and will still have him crucified. He had many options but instead shows himself to be a weak coward morally and that he takes a coward's way out. </p><p>The Jews say "His blood be on us and on our children". In Deuteronomy, the Jews took an oath to follow God and they sprinkled blood on all the people to accept that they were all under the Old Covenant. Cutting the covenant is here too. Jesus' sacrifice is now going to bring about the New Covenant and if they reject Him, they will be in condemnation if they do not later repent. What was a trial has now become a time of the covenant being transitioned into the New Covenant. Just like in the Old Covenant. </p><p>He is scourged before crucified. Pieces of flesh are chunked out of Jesus in this process. They would be hitting him with these naked and pulling out chunks of skin. Usually, people would sometimes not even survive this before crucifixion. </p><p>27:27-31 - The Romans mock Jesus after scourging him. They spat on him and struck with a reed. The Old Testament has a goat that was sent out to die as a sin offering. </p><p>The Epistle of Barnabas says that they would spit and mock the goat and they would put a red ribbon on its neck. Jesus wears a red robe that they put on him. This is the red ribbon. The sins of the world are representative here with the red robe/red ribbon. Jesus has put on all the sins of the world and like the goat who is mocked and led out of the city to die for their sins, so shall He now. </p><p>27:32-44 - They make a Cyrene named Simon carry the cross because Jesus can't carry it anymore. They walk to Golgotha and make him try to drink some wine with gall. The Place of the Skull was in 2nd Temple Judaism, the place where they believed that Adam died (as they think that Jerusalem is where Eden used to be). Symbolism is obvious here. </p><p>The sour wine is considered a sign of mercy and Jesus rejects it, taking and accepting the full measure of this suffering. They crucified Him and Psalms 21:19 is fulfilled (LXX). They then keep watch while Jesus has to experience an excruciating pain and suffer up there on the Cross until He dies of asphyziation or something just gives out. You are also hanging out there naked and exposed to the elements. The Romans would be unconcerned as they see this every day. Jews as well. </p><p>Pilate has a sign set up "This is Jesus. King of the Jews". Robbers are on the left and right side of Him and are crucified with Him. He was blasphemed by people walking by and both robbers as well. </p><p>There is some temptations here. No one is friendly here to Jesus. He is utterly rejected and alone. Deserted. Mocked. All of humanity. </p><p>9 AM He is crucified. Noon (6th hour). 9th hour (3 in the afternoon). </p><p>There is darkness from 9-3. That is 6 hours that he is up there and dies in the 6th hour. Representative of the 7 days of Genesis, He will die in 6 hours and his work will be finished. He quotes Psalm 21: "My God... Why hast Thou forsaken Me?"</p><p>27:45-56 - One guy tries to give him wine again. Matthew presents Jesus rejecting it again and as he is dying he is praying the psalms. Jesus dies and then there is an earthquake and the veil of the Temple is torn, and people rise from the dead. This is a Day of Judgment and a day of reckioning and a Day of Darkness. The Prophets prophesied this event would take place. Jesus' death is a day of Judgement on Israel. There will be a remnant to be the New People. The people of Israel will join the New Covenant or be cut off. It is a judgment day here. </p><p>These people are sitting in their tombs for 2 days and don't come out until Jesus rises from the dead. They literally stay there because Jesus is the beginning of the resurrection of the dead. </p><p>27:54-56 - The Romans exclaim "truly this was the son of a god". They are superstitous enough as pagans to see that He might be legit and that they should not have killed this man. Meanwhile, the Jews still do not see it. </p><p>27:55-56 - The women watched Jesus die and all this take place. They are witnesses. This is unheard of to use women as witnesses in this time period. Christians have a place for women here. </p><p>27:57-61 - Joseph of Arimathea comes to see Pilate and asks if he can bury Jesus. Pilate allows it. The disciples are off in hiding right now. Joseph risks his life here to have him buried. He is a courageous man. </p><p>Pilate just experienced an earthquake and darkness on a weird and awful day. To appease the gods he probably allows this man to do it. So Joseph and these women are witnesses. We miss this but women are witnesses here which speaks to how the Early Church saw women. </p><p>27:56 and 61, to establish a fact, names three women. Usually, you would have people hang and be eaten and exposed by the animals and elements. This does not happen and Joseph buries Jesus. Christianity says women are equal to men to God. Also slaves. They are people. This is why Rome hated Christianity. Christianity literally uprooted the social order and upheaved it. </p><p> 27:62-66 - The chief priests remember Christ said he would resurrect. This is on the Day of Preparation. They just killed Jesus on the Sabbath and had profaned it. Now they want to still try to do whatever to stop a dead man and his movement. Pilate gives them gaurds to rule the tomb and watch it and is sick of it. They set a seal on it so that if someone breaks it they will know someone tried to come in. </p><p><b>[Chapter 28]</b></p><p>28:1-8 - The women come to the tomb and there is an earthquake. An angel comes and rolls the stone. The penalty for falling asleep for a Roman soldier is death. They pass out at the sight of the angel. The women don't fear this angel. Christ has risen from the dead and they are told to tell the disciples. </p><p>28:9-10 - Jesus shows up and tells them to do it and two women serve as His witness. The gaurds run to the priests.</p><p>28:11-15 - They ask the Jews to cover for them. </p><p>28:16-20 - He appears to the disciples and they see Him but some doubted. Jesus says last in the Gospel that "all authority of heaven and earth has been given to Me". He is victorious. He has defeated Satan. All the nations of the world are now Christ's, not Satan. Anyone who follows and represents the devil has lost. </p><p>Now with this authority, He tells the disciples to go out and make disciples of all nations and baptize and live holy lives. </p><p>All heaven and earth. He is in charge of everything and is the authority. He is the Emperor. Rome is no longer in charge. God is. </p><p><br /></p>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-57385216290069546552021-01-04T21:29:00.000-08:002021-01-04T21:29:02.699-08:00Matthew Chapter 16-21 Notes<p><b>[Chapter 16]</b></p><p>The Pharisees and Sadducees both hate each other but join forces here to try and get Jesus and test Him again. They demand a sign again to show that He is Messiah. He responds with how they have seen him do all these things and miracles in public and that they still can't "see" it. He calls them hypocrites and says that they will see the "sign of Jonah". They have all the proof they need, they just refuse to accept it. </p><p>The disciples forgot to take bread and Jesus makes a statement here about the Pharisees and Sadducees about leavened bread. The disciples think he is talking about them and then reminds them of their feeding the 5000 and the 4000. Despite all Jesus has done, literally everyone is still clueless (16:1-12).</p><p>16:13 - They are in Caesarea Phillipi. </p><p>16:14-20 - Jesus asks who people think He is. Peter declares who He is. Peter is not a rock nor a female so this statement is not about Peter being the foundation of the Church. </p><p>"On your profession of faith" is what I will build My Church on. They also are at this scene looking at Mount Hermon too, which while this takes place there was thought to be a gateway to Sheol. Baal and Pan were often worshipped there at that mountain. </p><p>God's given power and authority to those in the Church is what is talked about here.</p><p>16:21-28 - Jesus knew what was to happen to Him and now He begins revealing it to the disciples. He rebukes Peter when Peter tries and rebukes Jesus saying that "He can't die". Jesus says, "Get behind Me, Satan". It is a word for enemy He is using here. Not that Peter is actually possessed here. Peter was however playing the devil's role some here and speaks for Satan unwittingly. </p><p>What good is it to be Caesar and in Hell? Lost your soul for a pot of soup like Esau?</p><p>16:27-28 - "you shall not taste death until you see the coming of the son of God in His Kingdom". Day of the Lord will see God judge His people, the Israelites, and then the remnant will survive, purified with the Gentiles to worship Yahweh with Messiah. Then the Ginal Judgment and Resurrection of the just and unjust.</p><p>The Day of the Lord is what he is talking about here. Christ at His Crucifixion is the Day of the Lord. There is a cutoff day of Jewish people here and only a remnant will be left who accept the Messiah (Jew and Gentiles). </p><p>This happens with the Ascension where God Incarnate is enthroned. </p><p>Matthew 28 shows when He is now reigning over His New People (Ps. 110) and does this until the 2nd Coming. </p><p>The left hand is judgment and does duty work. Right is gifts and help. Spirit of God is usually filled with imagery of fire and consuming fire.</p><p><b>[Chapter 17]</b></p><p>6 Days. </p><p>Jesus is about to give a picture of "the rest" (the Sabbath) (7th Day). Took Peter, James, and John and transformed. He becomes bright and HIS CLOTHES also were turned white. </p><p>The goal of the end is the Resurrection, not just of the soul, the body too. This whole world gets transformed too, not just the body. He is showing a picture of theosis and the Resurrection - heaven and earth united as one. </p><p>Elijah and Moses. Jewish tradition. Ascension of Moses. It seems to definitely be implied here. 1 Peter refers also to the Ascension of Moses. 2 Peter does so with the Transfiguration it refers to as well. The Apostles don't believe in Sola Scriptura obviously here, pushing traditions obviously. </p><p>Peter is astonished and tries to make three tabernacles. Peter says something goofy too because Jesus still needs to go to the Cross. He has shown these three this before the Passion so that they would understand the point of His Crucifixion and Resurrection. They did not yet get what had happened, but did later. </p><p>17:10-11 - Jesus is Messiah and they then ask why Elijah must come first. Jesus explains St. John the Baptist was Elijah the Forerunner because John's spirit is like that of Elijah. He is the New and better Elijah, the one who took on his mantle. </p><p>17:14-21 - The other nine disciples couldn't free the demon from the child. This kind of demon can only be exorcized by prayer and fasting. He also called them a faithless and perverse generation. </p><p>Jesus didn't pray/fast here to drive the demon out but this is context about the disciples. </p><p>17:22-23 - Jesus is in Galilee and tells them He will suffer, die, and be raised and they will all think they are going to be killed. Lack of faith in Jesus. They have all also witnessed many messiahs who have failed. He is going to go willingly. </p><p>17:24-27 - Capernaum - there was a Temple Tax. They used, as currency, a crypto-currency. The Temple Tax is voluntary but they are trying to make Him be anti-Temple. Who do they get taxes from? Family or strangers? He is making a hit at the Pharisees and Sadducees because it is His House (Temple) and He is God. Also, Peter is accused in this as well. </p><p>They are family to God so they should not have to pay the tax. They then get a fish with money for the tax and pay it. </p><p><b>[Chapter 18]</b></p><p>18:1-5 - St. Ignatius of Antioch is possibly the child here. He points to a child because he is in a society where children are, in society, littel to rats and dogs. The first child, inherited stuff. </p><p>Peasants did not really have an inheritance. The disciples are asking who is the greatest of them and Jesus uses a child here as a visual for them to tell them to humble yourself to the bottom where these lowly human beings are who have nothing. God judges all who do not stand up for those with no power. </p><p>18:6-9 - It would be better if you were drowned with a millstone than lead the lowest person to sin. He is trying to teach them how to be truly great leaders. Must be held accountable. Do not be about power and authority. Be about accountability and responsibility for you will be judged more harshly if you are a teacher or have been a teacher. </p><p>18:8-9 - Figurative language here. Throw anything that will make you hellbound away. Stumbling-blocks. What do you keep tripping on? Throw it away. He references gaurdian angels too (Deuteronomy 32 [demons/angels of nations]). </p><p>Rome as a nation has Zeus/Jupiter as their fallen guardian angel (a demon).</p><p>Even children, the lowest beggar, the lowest person of lows have a gaurdian angel. </p><p>18:10-14 - God will count His sheep and go after one who is lost. He doesn't want anyone to perish. Christ became man to go after the lost sheep for He is the good Shephard. Every human to Him is precious. </p><p>18:15-20 - "Moreover" - Also, if your brother sins against you, go and speak alone with him. If he won't listen, take 2-3 witnesses so if he refuses then it is on him, not you. Then, hand them to Satan, exile. The purpose of this exile from grace will be repentance ultimately. </p><p>18:21-35 - Peter: how many times? 7? Jesus answers: 70x7 (symbolic). Jesus then tells a parable about a guy in debt who will become a slave because of this. We should be so forgiving like God is for us. </p><p><b>[Chapter 19]</b></p><p>He is now in Judea. The Pharisees question Him on divorce and marriage.</p><p>19:1-12 - He created gender so they would reunite (Adam and Eve). It is sinful to try and split them up. Jesus explains to the Pharisees when they ask why Moses allowed divorces that this was because of their hardness of hearts. Moses set an economia because he was dealing wtih hard hearts. This isn't how it was supposed to be at all. If he isn't divorcing for adultery, then it is a sham getting remarried. </p><p>Jesus says some are just eunuchs. Uses it figuratively for people choosing celibacy for God. The goal too is reconciliation of God and people. Divorce is a sin and you should try to remain unmarried. </p><p>Canons - rules are guidelines, not rules/laws like the Pharisees had. </p><p>Refusing to baptize a divorced person's baby for example is a sin. </p><p>19:13-15 - The disciples were being stupid and rebuked them, the children. They come from the marriages. Do not treat children bad. They are God's too and marriage is hard but a good thing. </p><p>19:16-30 - Someone comes who accepts the afterlife. Asks Jesus, the "Good Teacher" what else he needs to do. Jesus responds to him as if he's disingenous (and he is). God gave you the commandments so why are you asking this? Then He asks "which ones" he should keep. <br /></p><p>19:20 - The man says he has kept them. What else? </p><p>19:21-22 - Jesus says, if you want to be "perfect" (telos) (fulfilled your purpose for creation). Sell your riches and give to the poor and follow Me. He picks his stuff over eternal life. </p><p>19:23-30 - It is hard to be rich and go to God. You have too much power and authority and it means you are more with possessions. Did you help people with what God gave you (riches)? </p><p>The disciples for once get what Jesus is saying. If it was up to men, none would be saved but it is up to God. He can save us. </p><p>19:28 - recreation, not regeneration here. </p><p>Will the 12 be judges literally? No because Judas is with them. </p><p>You 12 (minus Judas obviously) will co-rule with Christ, King. You empty yourself of all but God. This will give you God who is the blessing and riches and eternal life. </p><p><b>[Chapter 20]</b></p><p>Begins a parable. A day's work was a denarius. Hires people and then hires more people. They did not all work the same but all got the denarius. They ask why because it seems unfair but they did agree to it, so the hirer asks why he is upset (20:1-16). God has offered the same reward for salvation for everyone, any time, Jew and Gentile, high or low class. </p><p>"Many are called, but few are elected" (part of Israel). </p><p>The invitation is for everyone but some are for a particular task/calling. </p><p>20:17-19 - Jesus is going to Jerusalem. Takes the 12 aside and tells them He will be betrayed, die, and resurrect from the dead. They still don't really get it and some of it is because they had seen false messiahs be killed. </p><p>20:20-34 - The mother of Zebedee's sons comes to Him and asks that her two sons be on his right and left hand. He has just said he will be tortured and die. Do you really want them to be on the crucifix with me? She doesn't know what she is asking. His image of the cup of suffering is from Isaiah he is alluding to. </p><p>20:22 - the two sons say they can take it. They don't get it. </p><p>20:23 - You and the disciples will all but John will be martyred. All will suffer for Christ. This is their purpose, called by Him to do. </p><p>20:24 - When the other ten here this, they are unhappy. They all still think that God has to do things a certain way. They think Messiah will overthrow Rome. He will but not the way they think it will. In a few days, they will go to being cowards, out of fear they will be crucified. The Resurrection will open their eyes to the truth. </p><p>20:25-28 - Jesus calls them to explain again that it is not going to happen like they think it will. If you want to be important in the Kingdom of God, you need to be a slave. Jesus proves this by going to the lowest of lows and crucifying Himself. </p><p>20:29-33 - Great multitude begin following Him. They think they are about to see the Messiah trample Rome and retake Judea. Two blind men even call him King and the people say to be quiet so Rome won't take them out. Jesus heals them and they follow Him. These people are blind and they don't get it. </p><p><b>[Chapter 21]</b></p><p>Donkey and a colt are here. So they do not get accused of stealing, he says to tell these people that it is the Lord who needs them. He rides two different animals. A colt and a donkey together. Matthew is trying to connect Jesus to Zechariah 9. In Zechariah 8, he talks about Restoration after the Exile ends. Zechariah 9 has enemies being ended. Zechariah 9:9 and on has the Messiah seemingly going to smash all enemies and bring peace for Jews. However, Zechariah 9 has the Messiah being gentle on a donkey/foal, not a war-horse. These are animals of service, not battle.</p><p>The king is going to get rid of all the weapons? Peace among the nations? The Jews and Gentiles will have peace under His rule of the whole world? By the blood of the covenant He will save them? They do not get it but they should have known better. </p><p>St. Matthew explains that the king promised wasn't going to be like Caesar and do violence. He was to bring peace to all He rules over through His New Covenant through His Blood. The bow of warfare is ended in His Kingdom (21:1-8). </p><p>21:9-11 - [Psalms 117:25-26 is quoted]. Theyre Messianic expectations verses. There's going to be a confrontation to come. </p><p>21:12-17 - Jesus went to the Temple and drives out the money-changer people. You had to exchange Roman currency for Temple money and got a fee too to exchange them back. They were also making these prices insane too. This sacrifice was to be for your repentance and God, not just be there to make money so Jesus cleans house with this. </p><p>The people all want the Messiah to mop up Rome and clean them out but He does this with the Temple. </p><p>So Jesus and His disciples and followers occupy the Temple nad he heals the blind and lame while there. The scribes and chief priests are pissed off seeing him be called the Messiah. Jesus says yes I have heard them and quotes Isaiah 56:7 where God shows Himself to the simple but the proud and haughty and prideful do not know God (that being the scribes and the Pharisees). He leaves then to Bethany for the night. </p><p>21:18-22 - Christ is hungry in the morning so he goes to a fig tree and finds no fruit on it so curses it. The point he makes here is that the fig tree is an image of Israel (the city) (a symbol). God brought them back from Exile. Israel has been planted back to the land and are not doing what they are supposed to do so they will be cursed for bearing no fruit even though they have been given this gift to be planted here. Remember they are still in Exile because of their sin. Their chosen status is coming to an end and Jesus is going to soon accomplish all that they have failed to do. </p><p>21:23-27 - He comes back to the Temple and is confronted by the chief priests and elders. He is not a Levitical priest so they question Him. </p><p>They are occupying Jerusalem's Temple and now Jews and Romans are all getting nervous because of past events when other people who claimed to be Messiah started uprisings. </p><p>Jewish leaders question who gave Him His authority to teach in the Temple. He answers with a question and doesn't answer. </p><p>It is not a bad question on the surface but they are being dishonest because they are trying to be shrewd. Everyone who is honest and wants to know, knows. They are not giving honest questions. </p><p>21:28-32 - He then asks a question to them. Which did the will of the Father? He tells them essentially that the ones who came to Him follow while the chief priests and scribes do not. They even saw John the Baptist change lives and would not admit it. </p><p>21:33-46 - Tells a parable. Someone buys land, makes a business, rents it out and when harvest comes, he sends his servant out and they beat and kill them. They do it again and then he sends his son as well. They kill the son to try and claim and keep the land. Rhetorically, he asks the priests and people what will happen. Jesus quotes Psalms 117:22-23 and then says the nation of God's people that they are rejecting will be given to others. The stone rejected is Jesus. The Jews are trying to build something and Jesus is rejected. They want their kingdom on earth. He is not the Messiah they want. Rejecting Him will result in Him being the foundation of a New People. That stone is also an allusion to Daniel. </p><p>Would you rather be broken or crushed to powder? All they need to do is repent but will not and so they will be destroyed. </p><p>God chose them to go to Canaan to bear fruit and they failed. </p><p>They rejected the prophets God sent. Then he sends Christ and rejecting Him will be it. Now God will do something new. </p><p>In the Old Covenant, God gave them the Law and they would be His people. He gave His commandments. Nothing was wrong with the Law. It was His people that were messed up and could not fulfill this good thing. He promises them through the prophets like Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Ezekiel, etc., that in the New Covenant God will fix the problem and make them His people. </p><p>The Church does not replace Israel. The promise is received by Jesus and those through Him and fulfilled in Christ. </p><p>Shem (the Jew) will open his tent to Japeth (family descendents of Greeks/Gentiles). </p><p>The seed of the woman (Genesis 3) is referenced. Women do not have seed, men do. Virgin birth was already prophesied there.</p><p>All this will literally happen (judgement) in AD 70 and then from 132 AD to the 5th Century, there will be no Jerusalem. </p><p>Pilate was executed by Nero in the 60s. Pax Romana got broken so many times. Beheadings weren't great. They just pulled off your head basically and usually poisoned and burned their women/wives and children as well. The men were beheaded by a strap usually, not really a sword a lot of the time. </p><p>If Jesus' mob of Pharisees got out of hand, the Roman emperor would get upset and have Pilate executed. Rome ran by terror on their entire people, that includes the Romans. Caligula was so evil that his own Roman gaurd murdered him and then his whole family because they thought he was THAT evil. </p><p>Then Claudius became emperor (his uncle) and Nero was born (oops). </p><p>This should make it claer why Jews wanted deliverance from Rome. The only real way to save Jews or Rome however and beat them is to convert the Emperor and that is exactly what Paul would go try to do in Acts. </p><p>21:45-46 - The people saw Jesus was a prophet and the chief priests now wanted to kill Him. </p>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-65772121547193903682021-01-04T18:19:00.001-08:002021-01-04T18:19:45.568-08:00Matthew Chapter 11-15 Notes<p><b>[Chapter 11]</b></p><p>John the Baptist is in prison and sends two of his disciples to Jesus to ask a question to him: "Are you the Coming One, or do we look for another?" </p><p>Why does he ask this? He is basically asking a timeline question here: Are you the Messiah or the Forerunner? This shows us John's utter humility because he is the Forerunner and the New Elijah (the one with a spirit like his) and doesn't even realize it. He doesn't even think he is important even. </p><p>Herod is scared of John the Baptist because he can see he is holy and the following he has amassed might get him in a lot of trouble with Rome who he is deathly afraid of screwing with. </p><p>Jesus quotes Isaiah to him to show He is the Messiah. Then (v.7-19) Christ says more of John. He says John is the Forerunner. "Did you think he was a king? No. A prophet? There has been several hundred years since one and John is in fact the greatest prophet of the Old Testament essentially. He quotes Malachi 3:1 to show that John is the Forerunner and that He is indeed the Messiah. John is "Elijah to come". John fulfills the mission of Elijah that is prophesied. In the New Covenant, everyone will have the Holy Spirit with them, not just certain Old Covenant prophets. God Incarnate is not coming to restore and bring the Old Covenant and Davidic kingdom back. He is bringing something better: the New Covenant. </p><p>11:12 - "The kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it". Jesus is not a war-leader. He is not ordering an earthly army. What started with violence? It started when John and Jesus were babies and Herod had Zechariah (John's dad) murdered and had tried to do with Jesus as well. This same man will also go on to kill the early Christians. This is who he is referring to. There are forces at work (demons through people) trying to destroy the Messiah and God's Kingdom and His people. John is the end of the Old Covenant and those who come next will be better in the New Covenant. </p><p>Jesus likens this generation - this crowd - to kids who are playing songs and none listen. These Judeans expect someone different and Judea got John and Jesus, who they act like are blind, idiots, drunks, etc. Truth is they are the only ones who can save these people. Those who are really God's people see and hear and know who John and Jesus are. Simeon and Anna were the first to recognize Jesus and who He was instantly. </p><p>11:20-24 - The cities Christ preached to had not repented. He says they are so bad that if he had done what he did with Tyre and Sidon, that He did for them, they would have repented like Ninevah. Using some hyperbole and graphic imagery here, but he is holding them accountable for what they know. They are judged on what God gives them and they have been given a LOT. Likewise, we have been given a lot as well and we are like them responsible and often take it all for granted. </p><p>11:25-30 - A quote from Wisdom of Sirach 40:1 is here (an image of servitude). Serving God or sin and the world. Are we a slave to God or the passions? Master over sin. </p><p><b>[Chapter 12]</b></p><p>After AD 70, Bar Kochba will happen and Jerusalem and Judea will literally cease to exist. It will be renamed Palestine and then Rome will literally flatten it and build an entire city on top of it. Jews will not be able to go back there until many centuries later.</p><p>12:1-14 - They (the Pharisees) get onto Jesus about the disciples getting some grain to eat. Jesus brings up David when he ate it. On Sabbath, they worked. He shows that there is one greater than the Temple (the Messiah). Jesus then quotes Hosea 6:6 again. Mercy takes precedence over the rituals, regulations, etc. Love and grace triumph. The Pharisees actively try to set Jesus up again in the synagogue with a man with a withered hand so they can accuse Him of doing evil and breaking Sabbath. He then uses one of the Pharisees' own rules about shep here (he uses the Mishnah which has this rule) to throw their own rules back at them. Isn't this man worth more than a sheep? Therefore, the lawful thing to do is to do GOOD on the Sabbath instead of do evil. </p><p>12:13-14 - Heals the man and then the Pharisees plot more against him because he has made them look like fools publicly. They are also, it should be noted, working to do evil on Sabbath. </p><p>12:15-21 - Isaiah Isaiah 42 to show He is Messiah and is the one they should be looking for. He also shares He will declare justice to Gentiles too. </p><p>12:22-37 - Demon-possessed man is brought to Jesus so the Pharisees try to plot against him. The disciples wonder could he really be the Messiah? They are not seeing what they expect and are confused. </p><p>The Pharisees then accuse Jesus of being able to heal people because of demon-possession by Beelzebub. The Talmud even says later that Jesus is a sorcerer who was demon-possessed. Beelzebub is a title for "lord of dung/flies". The Pharisees are calling Jesus a piece of shit in other words who is working for Satan. Jesus makes the point that if that were true, then Satan would be fighting himself. It makes no sense. If He is from God though, and He is, then the Kingdom of God is here and you are opposing Jesus while He reclaims the land from the demons. He shows how the Pharisees are actually working for Satan. </p><p>12:32 - Blaspheming this is when someone is fighting actively with God. They have made their choice. They are getting a warning here. He says it because he loves them and wants them to repent too. </p><p>12:38-45 - They then ask for a sign/miracle when He calls them a brood of vipers. Prove it, in other words. The Ninevites actually repented when Jonah showed up and now the Pharisees are asking. The Queen of Sheba asked for wisdom. Jesus say they will see one sign and that will be the Resurrection. "This generation" is used here with a Deut. 32 reference. Christ compares them to the ancestors who died in Exile and worshipped other gods. They will be even worse then when they started is what he says, when one lets an unclean spirit return. Be serious with your faith. </p><p>12:46-50 - Christ's family haven't all figured it out either yet who He is and are confused. </p><p><b>[Chapter 13]</b></p><p>Parables. Jesus is sitting in a boat at Galilee and tells his parables to the people. </p><p>One is a parable of the sower. The disciples ask him to explain this to them basically. Jesus says that he is telling them this so one who listens will get it. Someone listening will get it. He says Isaiah 6, 9, and 10 is fulfilled here. He then explains the parable here. It is all about the faith and message being heard and them getting it and following it.</p><p>Parable of wheat and tares. Evil farmer ruins harvest by putting taxes in it. The tares and the wheat will grow together. Then at the harvest (the final judgment). </p><p>The wheat will be harvested and the taxes will be done away with. Lot of people are tares but can become wheat by repenting. Peter says in 2 Peter that God is not judging yet because He is giving a chance to repent. </p><p>Next parable is mustard seed and leaven. If you cultivate your faith it will grow and then become great and large. Eventually it will overtake the world. Christianity was small, took root, and now is massive. </p><p>"The reapers are the angels" in verse 39. </p><p>In the house, he still talks in parable to the Disciples. </p><p>13:44-46 - Pearl/hidden treasure.</p><p>13:47-50 - Dragnet. Fish.</p><p>13:51-53 - Compares his disciples to the scribes. He intends for them to give Scripture, the New Testament and learn the Old Testament. Jesus is saying "we are writing the New Testament here". </p><p>13:54-58 - Jesus is rejected at Nazareth. They go "isn't this the son of Joseph, the carpenter? Mary's son? His step-brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?</p><p><b>[Chapter 14]</b></p><p>Herod gets scared of Jesus. Thinks John the Baptist who he'd had executed has risen from the dead. Tradition states John preached to the souls in Hades and announce the Messiah is come. </p><p>Herod is a weak king. So he doesn't get embarrassed, he murders John. John's disciples bury him and then told Jesus. (14:1-12).</p><p>14:13-21 - Jesus tries to go to a deserted place to be by Himself. People follow Him. He is travelling along the coast because boats back then weren't great. Jesus tells the apostles to feed the people. So they feed 5000 people with 5 loaves and 2 fish. They freak out becaues they cannot see how they will feed them, which is silly because Jesus is there. </p><p>Jesus is here in a deserted place with some grass and water. God sends manna from heaven in the Old Testament. Here, God fed these 5000 people. Herod's questions are also answered here. God (Christ) is the New Moses, David, etc. and will lead his people away from the evil rulers as a New People and conquer them in some way. </p><p>14:22-33 - Feeds them, then has them leave. Jesus sends them to Gentile land here. Jesus finally gets some alone time. As they sail, they get into a storm. It is 3 AM in the morning; Jesus shows up as they think they are going to sink, they see Him walking on water and even think he is a ghost. Jesus says, "Don't be afraid". Peter answers faithfully, "Command me to walk on water" so Jesus says "Come". Peter comes to Him, in a storm, and then falls and Jesus catches Peter and they go to the boat. Then, the wind ceases. They all worship Him as God the Son. As a king. </p><p>For a minute, Peter questions and doubts whether Jesus is in control of this situation or the storm. Then he fails. </p><p>14:34-36 - They cross-over to Gennesaret and recognize Him and start bringing everyone to Him. Gennesaret is Gentile land. God is the god of all people. </p><p><b>[Chapter 15]</b></p><p>15:1-20 - Scribes and Pharisees come to Jesus and ask why the disciples are breaking the extra rules the Pharisees' elders came up with. </p><p>This one was over washing their hands before they ate. Jesus responds with an actual commandment from God: "Honor your father and mother..." Says some of these traditions of theirs break the commands of God. The Pharisees have a tradition where they are cheating their own parents of debts they owe and have added a tradition that they can get rid of the debt by giving that owed money to the Temple. Jesus then quotes Isaiah 29:13 at them for hypocrisy. </p><p>He responds to everyone next: Eating pork doesn't make you [15:12 offends the Pharisees] unclean. It is what is inside of you and comes out of you like hypocrisy. </p><p>He then calls his followers not to mess with the Pharisees because they are blind and like a tree they will be uprooted. </p><p>Peter does not get this so Jesus explains again (15:10-20). </p><p>15:21-28 - A Gentile asks Jesus for help. She is from Tyre and Sidon. They are there now. Her daughter is demon-possessed. Being from and at Tyre and Sidon, and a "Caananite" woman. She is as non-Judean as you can get. She identifies him as Son of David, Messiah. Bad, destructive demon possession. The disciples tell Jesus to send her away (they discriminate). </p><p>She bows to Jesus after He says, "I am here for Israel". In other words, I am Messiah. </p><p>15:26 - "It is not good to take (Israel) children's bread and feed it to the (Gentiles) dogs". </p><p>She gives a good response about crumbs. He then heals her girl because of her faith. This was him to show the disciples that God is the god of everyone. He is making a comparison to them too over their silliness, ignorance, and weak faith. He essentially tells this woman to pound sand "dog" and she still has faith and begs for His blessing and knows He is King and Messiah. </p><p>15:29-31 - Jesus goes up to a mountain to pray and he heals these Gentiles. They worship the God of Israel. </p><p>15:32-39 - Jesus basically gives a re-do test for the apostles. The disciples screw it up again on how to feed the 4000. They even have more fish and bread this time and still fail. Jesus then feeds the 4000 people plus. They then go to Magdala (where Mary Magdalen comes from). </p>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4535736294867991865.post-82785878239124217042021-01-02T20:31:00.001-08:002021-01-02T20:37:00.799-08:00Matthew Chapter 5-10 Notes <p>Continuing from where we left off:</p><p><b>[Chapter 5]</b></p><p>St. Matthew says Christ is preaching on a mountain. Jews and Gentiles are here at this mountain with Him. He is painting a picture of Christ as the New Moses giving out the New Torah (Law) and giving it to a New People. </p><p>Jesus tells us who shall be blessed. </p><p>The "poor in spirit" (humble).</p><p>"[T]hose who mourn" (those who have had trial/tribulation for in this culture, the people who suffered were seen as cursed even though they aren't).</p><p>"[T]he meek...inherit the land" (not earth). Zealots want to take the land by violence but Jesus says only the peaceful people will be the ones to inherit it. </p><p>"[B]lessed are those who hunger/thirst for justice" - emulate those who have been downtrodden; experienced injustice because they will get justice from God.</p><p>"Pure in heart". Inward heart. </p><p>"Peacemakers". Not Zealots. </p><p>Blessed are the persecuted. These are those people who will inherit God's Kingdom. </p><p>Blessed are you when people hate you for doing things for God. </p><p>[Want a sign from God? Following Him will get people to hate you].</p><p>5:13 - Jesus shows here that he is not choosing this new people because he likes them better. He is saying he will use them to save and share the world to God. </p><p>5:17 - This is not Plan B because Plan A failed. He is saying that this is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant (the New Covenant). </p>Matthew 5:17’s “law or the prophets” is merely a way of referring to the whole Old Testament. Christ says He has “not come to abolish”. We should read Matthew 5:21-48 as well with their correctives in light of Christ’s opening remarks in 5:17-18. <div><br /></div><div>In fulfilling the Law, Jesus does not alter, replace, or nullify the former commands; rather, He establishes their true intent and purpose in His teaching and accomplishes them in His obedient life.</div><div><br /></div><div>When He says “until all is accomplished” it means until the full manifestation of God’s Kingdom, for which we are called on to pray for (Matthew 6:10). </div><div><br /></div><div>St. Hilary of Poiters says of Matthew 5 that “from the expression, “pass”, we may suppose the constituting elements of heaven and earth will not be annihilated… He [Christ] does not intend to abolish it but to enhance it by fulfilling it. He declares to His apostles they will not enter heaven unless their righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees. Therefore, He bypasses what is laid down in the Law, not for the sake of abolishing it, but for the sake of fulfilling it”.<p>Prophecy gives people the big picture. It is less about telling the future and can be good or bad. It is all to give the people a way forward. </p><p>"Fulfillment" - the word here is used like "to fill up a glass of water". Christ fulfills the Law. It is taking whaat is in the Law as kernel-form and blossoming it into a beautiful plant. </p><p>Jesus tells them that they have to be better than the Pharisees and Sadducees and then gives examples about how to be. He shows the heart of the Law and Prophets here by telling us to "love God and love people". </p><p>Even if you are angry you are in danger of the fire of Hades. What leads to murder? The thoughts of your murderous spirit. You and I are really no different than the Pharisees and Sadducees. We want to be innocent? We must strive to be pure in heart. </p><p>If there is a broken relationship, not made right, stop and try to remedy it because then you have done all you can to make it right and then you can go make your offerings and prayers to God. </p><p>Jesus forbids divorce here but the Orthodox Church does allow divorce? Why is this? Because life is not black and white like a fundamentalist might tell you. Remarriage for a 2nd time is allowed in the Orthodox Church (but not always and a 3rd re-marriage is often never allowed) as a concession to sin and our human weakness. If possible, you should only marry and keep one marriage throughout your whole life and strive for this goal. </p><p>When Augustus became Caesar he took all the titles but king and would every law through the senate. He claimed pater familia (father of the Roman family). </p><p><b>[Chapter 6]</b></p><p>Rome was beginning trade with China somewhat but not really, it was in very early infancy. They knew of the lands of the East and of the lands below in Africa but it was relatively unknown and unexplored to Rome as of yet. </p><p>Be humble. Do not make a show of it because God sees it. Hypocrites. Do not be like these somebody's and be more like the nobody's. God knows who you all are.</p><p>The Lord's Prayer is intimate. Worship is communal even if you are all alone in the desert. Angels and etc also take part with you in this. </p><p>Paul says when we worship is "when Christ appears" (note that this is not His Parousia or 2nd Coming). Heaven is brought down to earth and it is for most an unseen realm that we cannot see but some who have cultivated their holiness can and have seen the heavenly realm. When we pray we are praying to bring Christ and the godly down to earth. This is one of many reaasons we pray for His Return. </p><p>Forgive others like you forgive yourself. Tells them they can be holy and know God. </p><p>Mammon - person of substance - wealth, influence, etc. Also is the name of a god that was worshipped. Sometimes this was in the form of Pluto who was the ruler of hell and money. We cannot serve God and Mammon/Pluto.</p><p>We see the apostles want to convert people to Christ. Nowhere do they try to force people to live this way trough the Law either. </p><p>The gods - forces of nature in Greek culture and religion do not and did not care about you. </p><p>The god of Yahweh, the One True God, who is not a demon masquerading as a deity, does care about all people. This is why the Early Church was full of women, children, and slaves. Because to God, they are just as important as Caesar who is considered the highest and most powerful person of authority on earth at the time. The lowly slave is equal to Caesar for God's love. </p><p><b>[Chapter 7]</b></p><p>We need to be critical and judge ourself before we go trying to put our house in order. </p><p>7:6 - Dogs and swine are heathen peoples (Phil. 3:2; Rev 22:15) but also are about Jews who do not practice virtue. </p><p>If we are following God, He will take care of us and give us what we need truly. If you seek righteousness, God will respond: "Ask and you will receive". </p><p>Any position of authority that we get is from God and accept responsibility because we will be judged at a higher standard than others. </p><p>Whoever hears My (God's) sayings and does them, God will protect His followers, not based off of being of Abraham's biological people. </p><p><b>[Chapter 8]</b></p><p>Why does Jesus keep telling people not to tell about His miracles? This man with "leprosy" likely had what's known today as Hanson's Disease, a disease that causes your body's tissues to die. It becomes a necrotic tissue problem. The "leper" had faith and is bold to ask Christ for this because he could be stoned for coming up to someone and exposing them to disease like this. Christ heals him by touching this man however. In the same way that Christ purified the water at His baptism, His touch purifies the man. Jesus does this in front of a large group of people. Jesus just wants him not to say to people He is the Messiah and also doesn't do these healings for the glory because He is humble and that means God is humble. </p><p>This leper could now go back to his community after seeing the high priest and getting the okay to come back. He would also be restored to be able to worship God again. This grace was given as a calling so the leper could live differently and do what he was called to do.</p><p>8:5-13 - The centurion is a Gentile of faith. The servant is healed. A Gentile (Roman soldier), a centurion who is in charge of 100 men, who is actively oppressing Judea by order of the governors and emperor, has a slave who is sick and asks this Jew for help. He does it. </p><p>Jesus has now healed a leper, a slave of a Gentile who is also a Roman soldier, and up next will be an elderly woman (Peter's mother-in-law). Capernaum is a coastal town where Peter has been previously before Jesus worked since he had a boat and a house. </p><p>This Roman Centurion was perhaps what was called a "god-fearer". In the 1st Century AD, there were some Greco-Roman people who were fascinated with Judaism as an ancient religion. Jews only have one Temple and some synagogues to read Scripture (the OT) and pray a bit. The idea that they only prayed "in mind" was fascinating to the pagans because they always had to be active and do something outwardly to try and get a "reaction" from the pagan gods or try to strike bargains. This happened a lot back then and Pompey actually went into the Holy of Holies and found nothing but an empty room and then annexed Judah (Judea) as a province for Rome. </p><p>Jewish people hated Paul along with the Early Church after his conversion because there were people (donors) like this centurion who might join his cause of Christianity and then they would lose donations. </p><p>The first two examples of healing are the unclean and the enemy instead of being a ruler. He says there will be many Gentiles and etc. who will sit and feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, while unfaithful Jews will fail and not be. The condition necessary is faith. </p><p>Faith makes you a child of Abraham (a part of Israel). </p><p>Matthew 8:16-17 quotes Isaiah 53:4. When Jesus heals, he doesn't get their sickness or infirmities. He purged them and cleansed and purified them. Isaiah 53 in context is about righteousness. </p><p>JustifiedL cleansed and purified. </p><p>It is fulfilled as He does these things in Matthew 8. He doesn't even say their sins are forgiven here. Isaiah 53 is also not about some courtroom scene. The entirety of Matthew 8 would not make sense otherwise. The leper, demons, centurion, etc. need to be cleansed and made clean, not to be driven out. He turns enemies into friends and sinners here to saints. </p><p>8:18-22 - "Scribe" - rabbis. A law of Moses guy. They would come to Jesus and says that he would like to follow Jesus so Jesus essentially tells him "I'm homeless" to tell him that this shall be a hard road, something the scribe isn't going to be accustomed to. Christ refers to himself here as Son of Man (a term found in Ezekiel-Psalms-etc. also called Son of Adam, Son of the Dirt, not a term of glorification but the opposite). </p><p>This phrase is found especially in Daniel. The one like a son of Adam (human being) on a cloud who comes before the Father (Ancient of Days). In context, he is telling this scribe that if he wants to follow Him it is not going to be like he thinks it will be. It will be much different than the road he thinks this is going to go. </p><p>8:21-22 - Another follower says he will come but first wants to bury his father. Jesus says this life he calls them to is radical and that their former concerns are meaningless. Where we are going as a New People is much different. </p><p>8:23-27 - Storm happens. Jesus is asleep. The disciples wake him up and so Jesus calms the storm and gives them a critique about their faith. Jesus here controls the elements. Jupiter, Zeus, etc. of the pagan pantheon are in control of the elements in Greco-Roman religion. Baal is a storm god who beats Yam, god of the sea. What does Jesus do here? He calms the seas and the thunderstorms. He is God-Incarnate, stronger than all the gods/goddesses (fallen angels) combined. This Messiah is more powerful than the apostles expected and he has control over the elements. This is the first indication to the Apostles that this is actually God Himself Incarnated. </p><p>8:28-34 - Gergesene is where they head to and they come across a demon-possessed man. They come from the other side of the Galilee into Gentile territory (at best there may be Samaritans here). They find 2 demon possessed men who are blocking the road. </p><p>In Greek, the daemon was an "ancestral spirit". The Greeks had different ranks of or levels of demons. Apollo was a daemon in Greek-Roman religion for example but there were lower beings as well who worked for Apollo. You spoke to the "gods" by 1) idols or 2) possession (which the Oracles of Delphi did often). The Gentiles did not see this as bad and did this all the time. They also understood the differences between possession by a "god" and a mental illness. Socrates wrote he had a daemon that whispered things to him in his mind. This was common. The Roman emperor's "divine spirit" was what was worshipped, not him (usually). The two people were "touched by the gods" (demons) and they likely (the townspeople) saw them as being oracles or gurus in some sense. Ones gifted by the gods with spiritual wisdom of some sort. </p><p>The demons in the men recognize Jesus as Son of God. We got earlier the calming of the storms and now he is called Son of THE GOD, a title Augustus Caesar used is given by demons to Jesus as a title. Caeasr was seen as son of the god Jupiter. </p><p>They ask if he has come to torment them <b>before the time of judgment</b>. These spirits are expecting one day to be judged by Yahweh. He is going to judge the nations and spirits, the nations worship demons rather than the Creator and the Lord of Lords. They ask Jesus why he is here and beg for mercy. The enemy is not mankind but the demons who have taken God's people captive. They ask to be put into the swine because they have no power on their own without a human to try and influence. </p><p>They are begging to be put in pigs because they want to stay in the world for a while longer instead of go to Gehenna. The pigs then go and jump into the sea and drown. Evil is just like a parasite. The demons hate creation and end up going to Gehenna anyways since they can only destroy. The act of mercy given to them was short lived obviously. These people obviously see it and freak out about Jesus after having seen it. They probably realize he is God or a god and it is a lot like Isaiah's experience in Isaiah 6 where he is freaking out about experiencing God. Jesus leaves when asked to go away but he does not abandon these people because in Matthew 28 he will send the disciples back here. </p><p><b>[Chapter 9]</b></p><p>The people think that is blasphemy when Jesus says "your sins are forgiven" and heals the paralytic. He is saying and showing them that the real problem is sin, not being sick or disabled. Even the prophets however did not forgive sins. Only God can do this. Big hint that Jesus is God Incarnate right there. Rather than condemn creation, Christ calls them to repentance. </p><p>9:9-13 - Jesus eats with tax collectors and sinners. They are despised and Jesus is with them. He tells Matthew (Levi) to follow Him. He eats with them in the tax office house. The Pharisees get super pissed off at this because they think that He should be trying to get rid of these people because they are considered undesirables, traitors to Judea, traitors to Jews, and evil and good for nothings that do not cleanse or purify the land so God can return and get them out of Exile. Jesus is here however for these people. The healthy do not need doctors after all. It is sad too that the Pharisees cannot recognize God is right there standing in front of their own very eyes either. </p><p>9:14 - John's disciples ask Jesus: "Why do your disciples not fast?"</p><p>9:15-17 - Jesus answers them that they will fast when He leaves. Jesus is referring with the wineskins some 1st Ce. books that they would have all been aware of. One of these is 4 Ezra. In 4 Ezra, there is one vision of a bridegroom. A festival is about to start in it and this bridegroom is the king also. In the vision, he is fixing to consummate the marriage with his bride and then drops dead. All go into mourning and despair. This is 4 Ezra where there is a prophecy about the Destruction of the Temple as well. Jesus references this a LOT (and this isn't about Herod's Temple but Him, Christ). Jesus references this a lot because this consummation promised NEVER happened in the Old Testament (Old Covenant) but will in the New Covenant. Jesus here is also declaring Himself to be the Temple too. </p><p>They are not fasting because they are in a transition that is going on here with the Old and New Covenant. Something better and new is coming. The New Covenant. </p><p>9:18-26 - the ruler was basically like the Head of the Council. The guy who helps keep the synagogue in shape. </p><p>A woman with a blood issue (she has been unclean for 12 years and sick; anemic) touches Jesus' clothes and is healed and cleansed. She technically if Christ had sin, would have been counted unclean but he is not and instead purifies her. </p><p>Jesus goes to this rulers' house and saw the rich ruler of the synagogues' funeral-people, crowds, and professional wailers. He tells them the girl is sleeping. They mock him of course because it sounds ridiculous. She, the daughter however is resurrected. (Note: We will find later in Mark that this girl is also 12 and there is a connection going on there). </p><p>9:27-31 - He went to another house and these two blind men pursue Him on the way there. "Son of David:. King of Judah - Messiah. They are blind but can "see" that Jesus is Messiah. Pharisees meanwhile are following him around and can't see. Jesus asks "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" The blind men have faith and we see Isaiah 35:5 fulfilled here. </p><p>9:30-31 - He tells them again to not say anything but they tell everyone. This is humility of Christ. </p><p>9:32-35 - He casts a demon out of someone. Man was mute and now can speak. the Pharisees are blind and trying to make excuses as to why not to follow Christ. They don't like what he's doing. There is no repentance from them. The Pharisees know they will lose their whole corrupt way of life if they follow this Jesus of Nazareth. They'd have to lose hate too because the only way Rome is going to be defeated as an enemy is through love and making Rome a friend of God. </p><p>9:36-38 - Jesus looks at all the people. The harvest is great but the number of laborers are few. Israel he is showing here is weary and scattered because of their worthless cowardly leaders who don't care. He also says this with compassion knowing that these wicked rulers will be the ones to crucify and kill him. </p><p><b>[Chapter 10]</b></p><p>The Center is Christ. Peter, James, John are his 3 in his inner circle. Then it is His 12. Then it is 70 disciples. Then there are 120 disciples who stick with him all the way through. These are His main groups. A lot of the 120 are former John the Baptist followers. 3 James are mentioned: James who is Joseph's son, Jesus' adopted father (also Jesus' step-brother, Bishop of Jerusalem, and the one that would be martyred by being thrown off the Temple); James of Alphaeus, the Lesser; and James of Zebedee. James of Alphaeus would be the one to take off after the Resurrection to preach to Syria and other parts of the East, kind of like St. Thomas when he will go to India. These 12 follow Jesus at all times mostly. They are basically His apprentices. He turns them, grooms them into becoming His Apostles and representatives of the New People. He also it must be noted gives Judas power and authority to cast out demons. There is no justification for his betrayal and we should look at ourselves in Judas for we are like him in so many ways. </p><p>10:4-15 - This is the first sending out. He tells them to to Israel and Jews first. Jesus was homeless and went from house to house and depended on people to help and feed him, all of this done out of kindness and charity (10:4-10). </p><p>Those who do not accept the message will face judgement worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. Turning away from salvation is the result (v. 11-15).</p><p>10:16-23 - All of them except John get killed and martyred. The message will bring tribulation and martyrdom. God through the Spirit will give them all the words to say. If they endure they will be saved. This applies to us today as well. </p><p>10:24-42 - v. 28 - hell equals Gehenna. This shows there is an immortal soul. God knows all about us and cares. His message however is not a peaceful one. To follow God is to wage war against oneself and the demonic and many will not and do not want to sign up for this. We must however for the sake of our salvation, take up the Cross (crucifixion). It is to be a torture. Around a year ago at Passover, it was possible for them all to have been crucified because, in order to preserve peace, Pontius Pilate would crucify Jews at random, to make the point of people not causing trouble in Jerusalem. It would be like telling someone of color to tie the noose around your neck in modern day is what Jesus is saying essentially. </p><p>10:23 - You can refer to my notes in this blog but this is obviously not about the 2nd Coming as some silly preterists claim. </p></div>Lazarus Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16666450274296456034noreply@blogger.com0